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HomeMy WebLinkAbout86138 - MINUTES - City Commission MINUTES OF SPECIAL MEETING, CITY COMMISSION, CITY OF DANIA, FLORIDA, HELD O MARCH 5, 1965. The City Commission of the City of Dania, Florida, met in Special Session in the Commission Room at the City Hall, Present were: MAYOR-COMMISSIONER FRANK SALVINO e COMMISSIONERS ROBERT L. GRAMMER VERA L. HILL S. ELLIS YOUNG CARL ZENOBIA CITY ATTORNEY CLARKE WALDEN CITY MANAGER WILLIAM G. NEFF BUILDING INSPECTOR CHARLES LINDEMAN CHIEF OF POLICE MONTIE F. SMITH CITY CLERK MARY THORNHILL The meeting was called to order at 8:00 P.M. by Mayor Salvino. • Mayor Salvino: Ladies and gentlemen, this meeting is called for sewers only. Everybody in the audience will have a chance to talk one at a time, please. All questions will be answered by qualified men. Commissioner Zenobia: I would7like to say something, Mr. Mayor. I was one of the ones that were instrumental in calling this meeting a couple of nights ago. The season why I asked for a meeting to be called, I wasn t here when the sewer program was first started, and there has been a lot of talk around town that there is something wrong. The newspapers have inferred that there is something wrong. We are getting a lot of different answers, so I feel that the best way to do it is to call a meeting, get everybody here, and clear the air. Mayor Salvino: Mr. Philpott. Would you please tbll the audience how things are going? Mr. Philpott: They are going very well so far as I know. Of course, there is lots of checking and testing to be done yet, but you are going to have a good job when we get through with this thing. The contractor is under obli- gation to give you a good job, and we are under obligation to see to it. When we all get through with it you are going to have a good, operable job. I don't know what else you want to cover, but I know there has been some other questions. But I don't know what other questions might come before the meeting. Mayor Salvino: Anybody in_the audience have anything to ask Mr. Philpott? He is the Engineer. From the audience: The Engineer for what? Mayor Salvino: For the sewers. From the audience: Is he in charge of the sewers? Mayor Salvino: Yes sir. From the audience: 'Did he hire an inspector? Mayor Salvino: If you want to talk please come up.here. State your name and address, please. Gene J. Pelliccia, 214 S. W. 3rd: Am I to understand that this gentleman is the Engineer for the City Sewer Department?. Mayor Salvino: Yes sir. p" ig Gene Pelliccia: Is he authorized to hire anyone to check these sewers? Mayor Salvino: Yes sir, he is. "+ Gene Pelliccia: Did he hire anyone yet? {'I !!iv. Mayor Salvino: Yes air. S Gene Pelliccia: Then howcome in the paper I read that Bob Grammer wants to hire a city sewer inspector for $2,000 a year? Commissioner Grammer: You must not have read the paper correctly. Gene Pelliccia: Letts put it this way, I read in the paper where the City :.was going to hire a sewer inspector for $2,000 a year. Am I right, brother Grammer, for $2,000 a year? Commissioner Grammer: I don't think you are Gene. Gene Pelliccia: The paper quoted $2,000 per year. Mayor Salvino: The paper was in error. Gene Pelliccia: Now, will somebody in the audience verify that statement? Did anybody read that? (Several persons in the audience answered "right".) Gene Pelliccia: It was an error? Let's get back to it. If this gentleman is in charge of the sewers, when you say he is in charge, is he the City Engineer? 40 Mayor Salvino: Yes. Commissioner Grammer: He is the Engineer of this project, right. Gene Pelliccia: Is he authorized to see that it is running Eight? Dfayor-Salvino: That's right, he is required to I believe. Gene Pelliccia: Does he inspect himself, or does he depend upon an assistant? Mr. Philpott: We employee inspectors for that,purpose. Gene Pelliccia: You have inspectors? Mr. Philpott: I am down periodically myself.if necessary, to do a general checking over. Gene Pelliccia: Not full time, just in between when youlfeelothatoyod 'should be there. Mr. Philpott: That's right. Personally you are talking about. Gene Pelliccia: Yes you, I'm,referring to you. Now, ,on the other hand, there was a rumor in the paper and it was quoted by Commissioner Zenobia, I believe, whonstated that one street of 100. feet or 200. feet was dug up, pipes wbnttin, and covered so fast it wasn't funny, was you there at the time? Mr. Philpott: I don't know.... Gene Pelliccia: You don't know? Then you wasn't there? Mr. Philpott: I don't know what you are feferring to. Commissioner Zenobia: You better be careful who you quote here tonight, I was never quoted as saying.... Mayor Salvino: I happened to be there and there was inspectors there on that street you are talking about. Lester Culverson: Mr. Mayor, can I say something? Mayor Salvino: Just a minute please. Gene Pelliccia: I've got the floor air. In other words, am I to understand that this gentleman is in charge of the sewers? ^l. _2_ yEs. � o Mayor Salvino: Yea sir. • Gene Pelliccia: Now, this contractor that has the contract, when he goes so many feet, so many streets, so many miles, and demands a payment, is this man authorized to say okey, give him a hundred-thousand, two hundred? Commissioner Grammer: He is by working through the Commission, yes. • Gene Pelliccia: Oh, the Commission gives him permission to pay? Commissioner Grammer: That's right, Commissioner Young: No, we have to have a recommendation. • Commissioner Grammer: We have to have a recommendation from him first. Gene Pelliccia: Before the man is paid? Commissioner Young: From his inspector who says that the work is.... • Gene Pelliccia: He has no inspector. Commissioner Grammer: He does have an inspector, he has three inspectors. Mayor Salvino: He has three inspectors on the job at all times. • Gene Pelliccia: Correct me if I am wrong...if he has three inspectors and there was a quotation in the papers that we want to hire one, a sewer inspec- tor. Commissioner Zenobia: That's right. We feel like we would like to have a double check. There is nothing wrong with that. • Gene Pelliccia: Well, is the man hired yet? Commissioner Grammer: No. . Gene Pelliccia: Why wasn't he? This thing is going on. Before we hire the • guy.... Mayor Salvino: Well, I can answer that question if you want to know. If we hire a man, if anything goes wrong, them sewers do not belong to the City of Dania until one year after they are completed. So if we hire a man then they will put the blame on the City of Dania, because their man was theirs. So that is the reason that we go back on Mr. Philpott and the contractors. Commissioner Grammer: I would like to answer that too Mayor, if I could. I got a different view on that. This inspector that we were talking about Gene has nothing to do with interfering with this man's project. We want somebody to check for the city just in case, he can make notes, not to • interfere with the engineer. And we feel that this man could have experi= ence and watch this sewer go in from the time it starts to the time it is finished. And we could make a permanent man out of him to run our treatment plant. And he would know more about it than he would if we just pick up a man and stick him down at the treatment plant. • Mr. Philpott: Mr. Grammer, could I add to that? That as Mr. Neff knows, we have tried to co-operate with that in view. We agree with you that it is a fine thing if we can find the right man. Of course, in the meantime, if we can't find the right man and we need additional help we will have to put him on. And ordinarily it is hard to find a man of that type. Ordinarily , inspection crews that we hire are not interested in plant operation. You • will have to find a man who wants to look forward. If the City can find such a man, and we are in need of such a man, as I have told Mr. Neff, we will employ him as long as we need him, and,then the City can take him over. Or if the City wants to employ him as their inspector, that is perfectly alright too. • Gene Pelliccia: You said "we". Are you referring to your concern or the City of Dania? -3. • s • Mr. Philpott: The firm. ® Gene Pelliccia: If we were to hire a man tomorrow morning... Mr. Philpott: We who? Gene Pelliccia: lie, the City of Dania, I'm part of it. • Mr. Philpott: If you were... Gene Pelliccia: I am. If the City of Dania was to hire a sever inspector tomorrow morning, am I to understand he would be working independantly, no- thing to do with your outfit, or the contractor, but would report back here • for the City of Dania. Mr. Philpott: We have no control over employees of the City of Dania. Commissioner Zenobia: Gene, let me answer you this question... • Gene Pelliccia: You are getting paid by the City of Dania to run this... Commissioner Zenobia: let me answer you this way. We passed a resolution at the last meeting authorizing the City Manager to hire an inspector and he is trying to find the right man right now, to hire a man for the City of Dania. • Gene Pelliccia: At $2,000 a year. Commissioner Zenobia: No, not a $2,000. That was a misprint in the paper. Gene Pelliccia: What was the price? Commissioner Zenobia: The price was $61000 in the budget. That doesn't mean he is going to start at 6, but that is what we put in the budget for it. And the man will go on to run the plant. He is looking for the right man who has sewer experience, and would like to get him in on the inspections to work along with Mr. Philpott, but not to interfere with him. Commissioner Young: Just so there is no misunderstanding on that, the $6,000 resolution on that would apparently go up until the end of our budget. year which is August 31. Gene Pelliccia: I yield the floor. Mayor Salvino: Clerk, would you limit the speakers to 3 minutes please? j Anybody else in the audience7have any questions to ask Mr. Philpott? Donald Wells,• 6th Street: My question is is there being a test put on these mains before they are covered over? Mr,oPhilpott:.: What type of test do you have in mind? ' Donald Wells: What is the proper type? I am not an engineer. Mr. Philpott: There are several tests, there are compaction tests being made, as a matter of fact I just saw three reports, on the back fill. And then after the sewers are along and they are connected up in sufficient ' . length, they are tested for exfiltration where they are above ground water, they are tested for infiltration where they are below ground water, and they must meet the requirements of the specifications in both respects. They are also lamped for align:ent and grade, and they must:be to alignment and grade. That is after the back filling is done. None of that testing would be of any value until the sewer was loaded with back fill. That isn't necessarily all of the testing that will be done because the results of those tests might require a contractor to make some remedial,work in which case they would be retapped. Furthermore, at the end of a contract guarantee period, they will have to be'rechecked because you see, the contractors bond is for a year . after the acceptance of the work on a maintenance contract. And so at the TF:: , end of that time they will be checked again to see if they are still in A good operable condition, and if they have suffered any damage. Now you have got to understand that this sewer pipe that has to be uded is brittle, the various fittings are brittle, and sometimes they get broken accidently and nobody knows. But these tests that we are talking about will indicate whether or not such things has happened. Because in some cases you can see it, but in any case if there is any great amount of exfiltration or infil- tration beyond requirements of the specifications it will show up simulet taneously. Now that testing that I have described to you is the minimum amount of testing that is done. And that is assuming that everything works out as it should. It doesn't alcdays, unfortunately. In which case, more testing and more remedial work will have to be done. ' Donald Wells: I have heard questions, I'm just asking for my own opinion, . is the proper fill put under the main and is it properly being tamped as it is supposed to be? Mr. Philpott: Yes. Donald Wells: It is good clean fill? As I understand it, you, not you personally, but your office, in one meeting I was in, said that this will cost us approximately 4-1/2 cents a square foot. Has%that figure been changed? Mr. Philpott: Not that I know of. I know of no reason to make any changes in it. Donald Wells: The papers said it is possible that it could go higher. Mr. Philpott: Well I suppose anything is possible, but I know of no reason why it should. Donald Wells: In other words, the schedule still carries that 4-1/2 cents? Mr. Philpott: As far as I know. In other words, it would require .some major changes in order to change that figure, and I wouldn't know what they would be. 0 Mayor Salvino: Thank you Mr. Wells. Anybody else? Mr. Eager, 12th St, and 2nd Ave.: On February 12th there was an article in the Sun Tattler where the Commissioners and Mr. Houston had gone down to this sewer project and seen some of the pipe that was put in, and the arti- cle in the paper said that it was not satisfactory,' not 'according to speci- fications. And you still let them put the work in. I spent every day since that sewer started down at the sewer project, and I seen them tamper once. When men are working up to water that deep, in.plain English, how the H--- are they going to tamper it? And as far as back fill, today is the first time I ever seen them put any sand, it is usually the muck that is on top. They just took the sand off the back and pushed it over the top, 37 feet . of it. That is the only thing that I ever seen covered with a little sand. And one of them was at least 4 inches of gravel underneath. I was taking pictures again today of it. And there was. a gentleman there, he said it is cold. I said yes, I said are you connected with this? He said yes, I am an inspector. An inspector for who? For the City of Dania. I said I didn!:t know they hired one, he said oh no, I'm an inspector for the Engineer. Mayor Salvino: Are you a sewer man? r Mr. Eager: Wait until I get finished. I said, he said, is the work being done right? I said you are an inspector, what are you asking me for? He said is that the right kind of dirt to put in there? I said you have the specifications, which is the property owners bible, specifications. fAnd it takes a long time to write specifications. , If you live up to them. And as far as testing is concerned, I didn't 'see no tests. Commissioner Zenobia: What is your name please? Mr. Eager: Eager, I told you. s Commissioner Zenobia: I didnIt hear you, I'm sorry. to :A -5 . Mr. Eager: Why is this work going on? Has this contractor had a payment • as yet? Mayor Salvino: Mr. Philpott. Talk to Mr. Philpott, he will answer your questions. Mr. Eager: Has the contractor got a payment yet? • Mr. Philpott: I don't think so. Mayor Salvino: No sir. Mr. Eager: Oh, he hasn't. • City Manager Neff: I think if you will let one question be answered first before you go on to another question you wilL receive the answers to your questions. Mr. Eager: I'm sorry. • Mr. Philpott: Well now, what is the question? City Manager Neff: Just ask the question that you would like answered, Mr. Eager, and I think Mr. Philpott or Mr. Mears or one of the inspectors will then answer you. • Mr. Eager: Why isn't the work being tampered before they put the gravel down? They can't even see what they are doing. The men are working in water that ddep in some cases. Sometimes over their ankles. Mr. Philpott: Yes, that's true enough. However, just remember this that • this contractor is under contract to do a good job. And we are under con- tract 'to see that he does. After long years of experience we make the engineering decisions as to how the terms of these specifications have to be applied to the job. And as long as.we are the engineers on the job; we will have to make those decisions. And the decisions change according to. the conditions that we run into. If we run into bad water conditions, we • have:,conditions where sewers are being laid in the dry, which is easy, a rock foundation under the pipe is required because it makes the best possible bedding for the pipe. It is almost impossible to bed that pipe properly in sand. That is the reason why the 4 inches of rock bedding underneath it is required. Sofar as the tamping is concerned, the compaction tests indicate whether that has been done properly or not. And so far every test that I • have seen indicates that it has been. Furthermore, if there is any differ- ential settlement, which often does happen, during the year that the con- tractor is responsible for this work he will have to repair it. So that you cannot, it is impossible to build a watch in a sewer trench. We have to take condition's as we see them. We have to apply the requirements and specifications in accordance with about 35 years experience with building these kind of struc- � , tures under these conditions. And as ,long .as we are on the job it will have to be done that way. There is no other way for us to be responsible for the work. And there is plenty of testing and checking done duffing and after the time that this work is put in place to determine whether we have got a good job. Mr. Eager: I seen them cover up about 50 feet today, just back fill it. • They put the pipe down and one of the laborers has a crow bar, he pushes it in.place with mud and everything else that is going in there, and if it is a little bit too high they just jump on it...whoa, get off. Then they push a little bit more under. That is not solid. You just say about a test. If you got leaks there what are you going to do pull up the streets again after to find out where it is? Mr. Philpott: If the leakage is too high, yes, that is the only way it can be fixed. But you can't check the leakage until you get the sewer built. Then you have it made. Furthermore it has to be cleaned out. If the con- tractor has permitted any sand to get in the sewer he has to take it out of 4 there. That is part of the contract. He does that as a matter of course. And we ldok through the pipe to see what condition it is in to line and grade. , Cr, _��.. -6- L Mr. Eageri Oh, I didn't see nobody look through the pipe. ® Mr. Philpott: We are not through yet, of course you haven't. There are a lot of things you haven't seen because they haven't been done yet. Mayor Salvino: Anybody else in the audience? We have the contractors, we have the Engineers, we have them all here tonight if you want to ask anybody a question. O Gus Brice; 226 S. W. 6th: Gentlemen, I think werare going about talking about a lot of things here, but I think what most of this audience wants to know is this...why was the people of the City of Dania led to believe that certain areas would be covered with sewers. - We wake up to the fact that they were not. The second thing is we were led to believe that the sewers • would go down the alleys, now we find out they are going down the streets. Change orders have been issued, the public hasn't been informed of it, as to why. Now there may be a reason for it, I am not saying there isn't. I am merely asking that I think we should be informed of it. The next thing is that we have neverebeen informed as to any indication of what the tie-in charge would be. The next question is, how many of us have to tie into this • sewer and what assurance do we have that the so-called charges that were put out in the bulletin of the monthly charge is going to be adequate to operate our disposal plant. Now those are the things that the City or the people are more interested in than we are in regards to you hiring an engineer and we will have to trust him.to do the installation. Let us know about some of the rest of them which is going to affect our cost,. • Mr. Philpott: Mr. Mayor and Commissioners, I can answer I suppose some of those questions, but not all. If we take them one at a time. I am still intrigued about this area business.. Mr. Grammer I think it was brought it up at one of the meetings and I thought that I explained that. Am I to • assume that we are still talking about the acme thing? Let me say this... I rechhckad again yesterday and then Mr. Culverson dropped in the office today, and he and I checked together. And if we are talking about the area east of S.E. 2nd Avenue and S. of the Golfcourse, down to the S. city limits and over to 5th Avenue, there have been no changes made in the area to be served by the gravity sewers since the original report of 1958. There were • some revisions made from time to time, all of which were delivered to the City Hall here, on the original sheets. But none of them changed in any way the proposed construction, actual construction, of the sanitary collect- ing system in that area. There were several sheata, I think there were 17 all together, but along about "sheet 13 and 14 are indicated exactly what the City Commission instructed us in the first place to build there, and • there has been no change made since then. Gus Brice: Was that included in the contract with the present contractor? Mr. Philpott: Was what included? •' Gus Brice: This area you are talking about. When the contract was let with the present contractor, was that area covered? Mr. Philpott: Well the area that we were authorized to construct sewers in, yes. But not the area which the report indicated as "not for present con- struction, but for future construction". Those lines were shown with dash lines. The sewers that were to be constructed at the present time were •_ shown in solid lines, and if you compete the .golid lines shown in that report of 1938 and its subsequent revisions, with the contract drawings, they are identical. So that there is no change in the area. We were instructed to begin with to construct the sewage collecting system in the developed area, meaning in the area where there are customers. And that is exactly what we did, and it has not been changed since then. Now I don't know....let's just go back a little bit here...I don't know whether the idea of the change in the amount of the assessment might have originated with the idea that we have all of a sudden shrunk the area for the same amount of money, or not, but if so that is not true. We only included in our preliminary calculations for the amount of the assessment, that area which is actually severed under this contract. Gus Brice: How do we have any assurance as'to what the tie-in charge will be? 4 -7- • • • Commissioner Zenobiai We are going to have a Public Hearing on that. ® That wouldn't coma up tonight. Gus Brice: Well, but wait a minute, gentlemen. You are going on here with this and we don't have any assurance as to what it is going to cost the people. • Commissioner Grammert Well right now the way we are figuring it, it is not going to cost you anything except to run from your house to the sewer, which that is on your own. You can do it yourself, or have a plumber do it, but as far as tying into the sewer, your assessment charge would take care of that. . Gus Brice: Alright, now originally when they talked about sewers, they talked about alleys. Arid they had an-ordinance to that effect at the time that on those streets where we had alleys, that the sewers had to go out in back of your homes. Now why was that changed? Commissioner Grammer: Well that I can't answer because I asked the same • question, I was told for years, I would day for the last six to seven years. I am a builder, and I have had plans changed where we had the septic tank in the front, and they would draw it in the back and say there was an alley back there. And I was forced to put the septic tank there. And I was the same as.you led to believe that where there was an alley that the sewers were going in the alley. Mr. Philpott:. Wall, x will take up from there. Over hera 'in the SW sec- tion of town, N of the cemetery, there are several on the map shown alleys. They don't go clear through, and in some cases they are only half alleys. In some cases they are too narrow to construct.tha sewer without encroach- ing on private property. And in some cases they are not open at all. You can't even see through them. So quite soma time ago I sent down here, with copies to the City Attorney, maps. And by the ways they are the same maps that I referred to a while ago, showing where the Bowers are going to be constructed, showing red lines on those maps the right-of-way that will be necessary to construct some laterals to serve the frontage on the Federal, Highway. Soma additional right-of-ways in the allays will be required if the sewers were to be constructed in the alleys. They are up I think, if I remember, North of 7th Street. No such right-of-way was available at the time of the awarding of the contract. And in.order to serve the pro- perty, we had to move those sewers which could not be constructed in the alleys, in the right of way because Mr. Walden had already certified that where this construction was going to take place that the right-of-way was available. Where it was not available: we bad to move it out into the street. There wasn't any other wag to do it. We had no chdica. Now that is part of it. We came down to where we had two streets or 'three alleys left just North of the cemetery. I, myself, in order to save the City of Dania money, carried those right on into the streets in order to save that extra approximately 1200 feet of sewer to serve exactly. the same property as could be served for about 1200 feet leas sewer. That is my responsibility, and I did that. The City Commission said to me here a while back, directed me, to put the sewers back into the allays. . And that is in process right now. It is going to coat more money to d6 it that way, simply because to servo the as= property, it is going to take three runs of sewers instead of two. But that is in process now. So where they can be put in the allays they will be in the alleys. If there isn't the right-of-way necessary to construct them, we can't build them in the alley. Gus Brice: Well maybe this question should be directed to the City Attorney. Was any effort made to secure any additional right-of-way in those alleys that they said were not wide enough? City Attorney Waldeni No air, Gus Brice: Well why weren't they? City Attorney Walden: I don't know. Commissioner Youngs That was about 10 years ago. man .. City Attorney Waldent Let me say this...the sewer program itself was not authorized until September. • Gus Bricet Yea, but this has bean in process since 1958. Now that is the thing that we are bringing up. All of these things that are coming up now, gentlemen, have happened with the people assuming that certain things were being done, and this was done without informing them of the changes that we had been talking about since 1958. Now that is the thing • that we are concerned about. How far are we going to go? iMaybe:.in Sep- tember 'of this year you are going to say we decided 4-1/2 cents is not enough, we got to go to 9. All we want to know....we are not opposed to your program. We are not a bit opposed to the program. But we want to know what is being done and what assurance we have of what it is going to cost us. After all, the City Commission is not paying this bill. • We are paying the bill. Commissioner Youngt I would like for you to elucidate on the portion where you had reference to all these changes that were made and that the citizens -had no knowledge of. • Gus Brice: Alright, I think we were all led to believe that the sewers would go in alleys where there was an alley available. Am I wrong folks? From Audience: That's right. Commissioner Zenobia: Well they are going in where possible. Commissioner Young: Mr. Philpott, did the original sewer plans call for sewers in the undeveloped areas? This gentleman just: said they did. I want to clarify it. Mr.Philpottt No. • Commissioner Young: They did not. Mr. Philpott: Do you have a copy of•those preliminary plans? You should have. We delivered them by the hundred-pounds. Wells in any cases I hope that you can find it in your hearts to believe that there have been no • changes made. And if I had a set of the plane here I would show you. Commissioner Grammer:. Let me say this Mr. Philpott. I think I can clear it up.a little bit. I was of the same impression as this man when we were .talking about the sewer program. I am talking about better than a year,ago. This set of plans that you are talking about, that is the set that me and • Mrs. Hill, the Attorney, and I believe Mr. Tarpley went with us to Atlanta. This set of plans had lined-out areas where the sewers were going to cover. Now this was my line of thinking. We had no lateral plan at that time shown on this hat. of plans. I have a set of them at home that I carried to Atlanta with me. Then after we get the lateral plan back it has got a lot of these places marked off. On the plan that we had the lines were short, I am talk- ing about they don't reach to the areas; and this lateral plan was sent to Atlanta. They received it on August 4th of the past year, I never seen this lateral plan until several months later. It was at a meeting here with for- mer Commissioners Mr. Thornton and Mr. Tarpley, came up and asked us questions. Now this was after the new commission had come in. And truthfully I couldn't answer them because I was a little surprised myself. That was the first time • that I seen the lateral plans. Mr. Philpott: Wall that was first made in 1958. It was part of the 1958 report. Aid then we made 2 or 3 revised reports at the request of the Commis- sion, and that as= plan became a part of those revised reports. That is the reason why I say there should be a copy around here somewhere, because we - • furnished you a lot of them. But my point is that that particular area down there has not been changed since 1958. It started that way by order of the City Commission to serve the developed area, and it has never been ganged since, and it has not changed in this contract. Commissioner Grammar: Well let me ask you this to clear it up for me a '• little bit. Do you mean that in 1958 there was a plan drawn like the lateral plan that we have today? r::` _9- Mr. Philpottt Wall I don't know what you mean. • Gus Bricet. Mr. Philpott, what we mean is that the area plan, not the lateral layout, the area plan that moat of the citizens of Dania thought this sower was goingin is not what was wound up with the lateral plan. Now will you agree? Mr. Philpottt I don't know. Gus Bricet That is what we are trying to say. The area plan is all that most of these citizens sitting hers today knew anything about. Mr. Philpottt Well I don't know what the citizens of the City of Dania thought. You see, we had a plan showing the pumping areas, to delineate • the various areas to be served by the various pumping stations which are under construction now. Those are the pumping areas. .Following that plan showing the pumping areas where the detailed sheets showing where in the first stage of construction the collection system was going to be built with dash lines showing future construction, when the property developed suffici- ently to warrant it. You had two different sets of plans, you had one sheet • showing the pumping areas which haven't been changed, and then you had a series of I think 16 or 17 sheets showing the sewers to'be constructed. Neither of which have been changed. The pumping areas are the same and the sewers to be constructed are the same. Now if the citizens of the City of Dania thought something else besides that was going to be done, I don't know. I don't know where they would have gotten such an idea. For the simple • reason that there are areas out there in the SS part of town where you couldn't construct a sewer. It is not even up to grade yet. If you put a sewer in those low areas and then put earth-moving machinery in there, you would break up your sewer getting your land filled up to grade. It just doesn't make sense. Besides which there are no customers. And customers • have to pay for these sewers. Gus Bricet The assessment is what has to pay for it.. Mr. Philpottt Oh not entirely. No sir, not entirely. It takes customers. • Gus Bricet Alright, now let's get down to the next question. What arrange- manta are being made to assure the public that the $3.50 per resident, plus so much for extra bath, is going to be the final figure? As I understand it we don't have to tie into the sewer. What, if we only have a hundred. people tie into the sewer2 Can we support a disposal plant'oa that? Commissioner Zenobiat I never heard that before, that you don't have to • tie into the sewers. Gus Bricet Well that is some of the things we want cleared up, gentlemen. The impression that we have is that you can take it or leave it. Commissioner Zanobisij Well, like I say, I was not on the Commission when this started. But I believe everybody has to tie into the sewer don't they Mr. Philpott? Mr. Philpottt Well, that isn't for me to decide. w Commissioner Zenobiat Well the other Commissioners might be able to answer ; it then. Gus Bricet Let me put it this way, maybe we can't get all those answers tonight, but I think these things we should know. City Manager Neff* Mr. Mayor, if the'membera of the Commission remember, • I think there was an ordinance passed# which when the members of. the Com- mission pass an ordinance, it becomes the law of the 'cityq that everyone should hook-up within a period of 90 days to this sewer or they would be charged whether or not they use it. Is this not correct? . • -lo- • 0 Commissioner Young: That is materially correct. That was an ordinance that we had three readings on. • City Manager Neff: That's right. I think it is a matter of record. Commissioner Young: I believe that was last September, maybe August. Somewhere in there. City Manager Neff: Does that answer your question? Gus Brice: Yea, if there is an ordinance there that is all we want to know. We just want answers. Listen gentlemen, I am not up here in an antagonistic attitude. I just want some facts. I have soma property out there'that is going to cost me a pretty penny before I am through. City Manager Neff: Mr. Brice, if I mdy elucidate just a little bit further, I think also contained in the same ordinance is the requirements that are contingent upon hook-up, which also means that you will take care of the plumbing on your own property, also the draining of your present septic tank, the filling of your septic tank, and the sealing off of your septic tank to meet all of the Health Board regulations. This is also part of that ordin" once. I think it is the aama ordinance if I am not mistaken. Mr. Philpott: Are we ready for the alleys now? We cant see underground. I have said that so many times I expect you are tired of hearing about it. So far as I know, where there is sufficient width available to construct the sewers, and where there are no underground interferences that we don't know anything about now, that is that pop up in the excavation, the sewers will be constructed in the alleys in accordance with the plane that started out in 1958. Gus Brice: Lets come back one step. Now what do you consider sufficient width and what do you consider an obstruction? Mr. Philpott: There are water lines, gas lines, there are telephone cables and conduit and there are power poles. Now it all depends on what we find and what can be done about what we find at the time. Our assumption is that the pipe lines are over where they belong to be. We certainly think the power poles are over where they belong to be, and where we have a 15 foot alley, and everything is where it is supposed to be, or it can be moved by somebody at their own expense, we can get the sewer in there. Gus Brice: Why would it have to be a 15 foot alley? We have very few of them in Dania. Mr. Philpott: Well that is just about what it takes. I am not setting that as an absolute minimum, but for the reason that you have; to have excavation room and you have to have room to work. And don't forget that we are not talking about an 8 inch pipe, we are talking about manhold bottoms that have to be excavated out to a considerable width in order to get them built. And I don't know. Gus Brice: What is the average width of a manhole? Mr. Philpott: Six foot on the base, plus your working room. I am not saying n we cat do it at all, I am saying that we are hopeful that we can. 0 'Gus Brice: Here is the point, the thing that was brought up' a while ago gentlemen, by this change of going into the street on the newer built homes in Dania. You are adding a considerable 'expense to the property owners, because the ordinance said that we had to go to the back when we built. By going down the streets, and the fact that the newer constructed homes were « required to put their septic tank and their sewer connections to their homes in the back, a good many places, and I would say 907 of the homes that have been built in the last few years, you are going to add double or three times the expense plus a source of a lot of trouble by having to go to the street. Now that is the reason I am bringing up this alley thing. I think the citi- zens are due the respect of, if at'all humanly possible, to go in these alleys, rather than to just say it is easier for the contractor. Now I have been in construction long enough to know that he can use equipment in a lot leas than 15 feet if he has to. -11- Mr;.Philpott: Well, there are some alleys over here that are not open and they are half alleys, and as far no we are concerned, we tried to put the sewers in every alley except as I explained those last three down' A there, in alley where we had room enough. Where we didn't have room enough, as far as I know except for one alley down here, a little short alley south of 8th Street, which the map showed wider, than it really is, we indicated on the maps we sent to the City Hall where we were short of right-of-ways. Well when we get right up to contract time and we don't have the right-of-ways, and the City Attorney has certified that the right- of-way is available for construction,'we don't have any choice. I can't help it. I mean if the alley isn't there, or if it is there and is insuf- ficient, or if it doesn't go far enough, which is another thing that hap- pens. Those alleys go part way through the block and stop, even the parts of them that are there, I can't help it. And if you are going to serve . the property and build sewers we have no place to go but in the streets. Now if the City Commission wants to go in there and get that right-of-way,.. Gus Brice: Well let'a go on the basis of,any alley that is all the way through. • Mr. Philpott: Well it depends on the width. Commissioner Zenobiat Mr. Brice, can I ask you, do you have any.particular alley in mind? Gus Brica: Yes air, between 5th and 6th Street. Commissioner Zenobiat Well between 5th and 6th we are working on right now, and that is a 10 foot alley. We are working on that right now trying to get soma more footage out of it to put this sewer down there. I would like to ask Mr. Philpott a question. Going back to the meeting of February 3rd, you were asked by the Commission how come the plan was changed from • the alleys to the streets. And you gave an answer that you got orders to change it from the NE corner of City Hall. But now you indicate that you changed it yourself, and I would like to know whether you got the order to change it or if you changed it yourself. Mr. Philpott& Did I gay that? Commissioner Zenobiat Yes air. Commissioner Young: No, I think that you said if you had any orders to change it that it would have come from the NE corner of the City Hall, • Mr. Philpottt. That may be true, but I have,checked into my own records, and have checked with the boys in the office and it was done on my respon- sibility in order to serve the property with two lines of sewers instead of three. And I don't frankly know whether I talked it over with the then City Manager or not. In fact, I don't even remember when the decision was made. However, you have the sewers in the alleys, that is in the process now. Where there are alleys sufficiently wide and sufficiently long to serve the property. Commissioner Zenobiat Well I wasn't here when these sewers were statted and everybody says they are supposed to be in the alley, and they claim there was a change. In fact, all the Commissioners that were here said that it was • in the alley in the beginning and it was changed. Mr. Philpott: They were changed where we, couldn't get them in there, where there wasn't enough alley. Commissioner Zenobiat I want to get these minutes out here and we will go • back to the meeting of February 3rd and get this thing cleared up once and for all. Mr. Mears: Mears is my name, Senior partner, M. B. Construction Company, we hold the contracts to do this sewer job. Maybe I can help Mr. Philpott clarify this. It costs twice as much to day pipe in those areas, which is 90,000 foot of pipe on this main line sewer program. .The property owners have to pay for these sewers, and we put them in the cheapest place. -12- 0 Commissioner Zenobia: Mr. Philpott, going into that meeting it says here: "Commissioner Zenobia: Getting back to the set of plans, Mr. Philpott, did you bring this set of plans to City Hall or did you send it...the one that was changed? To any particular part of City Hall or anything? Mr. Phil- pott: To the Northeast corner. Commissioner Zenobiat In other words the change was sent to the City of Dania. Mr. Philpottt Both sets were here, were delivered here. Commissioner Zenobiat Did you have any discussion with anybody about these changes?" Commissioner Zenobiat We were talking just in general here.for a few minutes. I'll find some more hare in a minute. It says here: "I only ask this because I have spoken to all five Commissioners, and they indicate they never have seen this changed plan.! They state in here that you got the 0 change from the Northeast corner of the building. Mr. Philpottt No, I said I delivered the plane there. Everything that I ever delivered here was delivered to the Managers office. Commissioner Zenobia: Well this is the minutes. Mr. Philpottt Well you read it. And what you read there is true. Commissioner Young: It said you delivered both sets of plans to the North- east corner, which would be the City Managers office. Mr. Philpott: That's true. I always deliver everything there. Commissioner Zenobiat Well this set we are talking about is a set of plans that the Commissioners said they never saw. They said they always saw them in the alleys, and this plan is the plan in the streets. Mr.Philpotts Mr. Zenobia, I don't. know what the City Commissioners have seen. Commissioner Zenobia: Well I don't know either, I wasn't here Mr. Philpott. Mr. Philpottt But I know what has been delivered to the City Hall, that I do know. Everything has been delivered to the City Hall right from the beginning. There have been no changes made that were not delivered to the City Hall. I don't know who looked at them, and I don't know what happened to them after they got here. But they were certainly brought here. Commissioner Hills Commissioner Zenobia, the reason I slid I had not seen any changes was simply because I had. not opened the plans to that particular area in the City and saw those changes. Mayor Salvinot Anybody else in the audience? Gene Pellicciat Can I have the floor again? Mayor Salvino: Give somebody else a chance. Angelo DiMauro, S. E. 15th Streets Some of these taps that are going in are going in in the opposite corner from the septic tanks. I know I talked to your superintendent in front of my house. And it is in the opposite corner. Now can these be changed at a later date? Mr. Barry: We tried to contact each resident as.we approached the property. In some cases we tried for days and never could find anybody at home. In such instances, we have to use our judgement. Sometimes we do make an error. In this case we have made an error. I think we will be able to straighten ' this one out. I dontt think it will involve too much work, and I'am pretty sure the contractor will go along and straighten this one attt. I don't.think it will involve too much work, and I am sure the contractor will go along in straightening this one out. This is the only one, and I believe we have something like 10 blocks between 2nd Avenue and Federal Highway that are completed. And I think that on 10 blocks, and we aren't getting any response in about 50% of the houses, one mistake is not too bad. Angelo DiMaurot They can be changed though? i; �13- • 0 Commissioner Young: Mr. Barry, are those the connection stubs that he is talking about? • Mr. Barry: Yea, these are the connections that run to the property line. Angelo DiMauro: Mr. Philpott, I would like to ask one more thing. How much rock is supposed to go for a bed? • Mr.Philpott: Four inches. Angelo DiMaurot. Was there any rock put down on 15th Street? Think before you answer. Mr. Philpottt Yea, I saw rock go into 15th Street. • Angelo DiMaurot You saw rock go into 15th Street? Who else? Anybody up on the Commission? Mr. Barry: I think the Mayor was there. • Angelo DiMauro: I was there with the Mayor. Mr. Barryt He didn't put any rock under the pipe? Mayor Salvinot I don't remember, so I am not going to say yes or no. Angelo DiMauro: You don't remember. Well I saw them dig and then lay the pipe and I didn't see no rock go in. I might 'be wrong, but I didn't see no rock. It is not a good bad I will tell you. Mr. Philpott: I think that there is rock under every foot of that pipe. • Mr. Barryt Will you pay for it? If we dig it up you will pay for it.if there i'a rock. Angelo DiMauro: I might check it myself. Mr. Barry: Well you check it if you want to, but if you will pay for it we • will dig it up. Mayor Salvino: Mr. Houston? Bob Houston: Mr. Barry, you will have to excuse me, I can't come to the front there, I have to have something to lean on. First I would like to give Mr. Philpott a little assistance here. It goes back to 1958 maybe a little latar_on. I might tear him apart, but I do want to help him out. In 1958 the Commission ordered the preliminary plans drawn. They are not complete plans or anything else. But before I forget, we paid I think Mr. Philpott after that $22,000 on these plans. I would like to-have the Com- mission check that figure, and if that is true, then immediately transfer • $22,000 into the General Fund out of the Sewer Fund, because that money is to the Sewer Fund. Now in regards to the area that you are talking about in the SE section, that was laid out there in the preliminary drawing and it was a stage that was to be added later on, which consists of a pumping station as well as a line going out 5th Avenue. The preliminary plans never included that area over there.. But these plans were discarded after the election because if you recall1l was defeated in the election because of sewers, which was a very good thing. But since then I think there has been two different sets of plane, one that I know of. One in 61 which was on the East side and then there was one or two after that. In regards to the allays the preliminary plans did show the sewers going down the alleys in the SW section. We knew at that time, and Mr. Philpott also knew, that we didn't have complete right-of-ways. But it was our intention of getting them. But of course, all plans were dropped after the election. So there is nothing further done on it until •161, and then you people took ahold of it. But I would like to see(:something done, and let the public know about these alleys in the SW section. Because it is a 10 foot alley, you need 12 feet to work in. I don't think there is any property owner down there that wouldn't want to give one foot on each side in order to get a sewer down its alley. Now on the other alleys, you talk about running 'into utilities the ty, .1i • only thing that we have in alleys is wator, and in some streets gas. Very few of the streets when you get to this side of the alley, this side of the old Dixie have gas. But where there is gas, it is going to one side. But I would say this, that even though the gas line is in the way, that you should have the gas company come in and move it over because in my opinion these alleys are very essential to the City of Dania. I think it is one of the nice things that we have in the sections to the SW, where we can take and put our garbage cans out in back and things like that. And I would like to ace some effort made to get these sewers in the alleys. Now there was a discussion started there with Mr. Philpott and Mr. Barry in regards to the cost of going from the streets to the allays. Before there is any rule made, I would like to have that expression publicly`;.are we running into difficulty there that we don't know anything about? But I do know this,,going into the alley there will be additional service lines. Perhaps we could make some dif- ference to compensate on any additional coat; I would like to say to Mr. Mears that I would like to See some instruction to his employees that are in charge of the project around here, they don't know what muck Is..-, Got a piece of it and let them smell it. They don't know when they dig it up. I saw them today covering up muck. Mr. Barry appeared on the scene, he knows that is true. There isn't any reason why anybody that works in a 0 trench like that can't tell muck. Mr. Barry: I think Mr. Houston left that muck situation just a little bit unclear. I think both he and I came on the particular spot almost instantaneously, and I immediately ordered that the pipe be removed, and that the muck underneath the pipe be then removed and replaced with rock. And than the pipe was relaid:. Isn't that right Mr. Houston? Bob Houston: Yea, Mr. Barry, and I didn't intend to.... Mr. Barry: You meant it for me, I will say that. Bob Houstont Well, I said that you came up there, but I also said that Mr. Mears men should know the difference between muck and sand. If they can't tell it by looking at it, they can tell it be Smelling it. 'Because I can smell it a couple blocks away. City Manager Nefft Mr. Mears, in answer to Mr.'Brice's question, I would like to quote from the Specific resolution that was passed, and it was passed by the City Commission an the 7th day of December, 1964, and it states right in here that such owners shall cease to use any other...I am taking this out of context now...but such owners shall cease to use any other method of the disposal of sewagei Sewage waste, or other polluting matter and shall be billed within 90 days after the availability of such , sewer service. This is a matter of record. Gene Pelliccias Mr. Mayor, I want to ask a question. Give me the floor one minute. Mayor Salvino: Probably somebody else' wants the floor. Anybody also in the audience have a question to ask Mr. Philpott? Thomas Lindeman; 626 N.H. 2nd.Place: I have been a resident here for about 6 years, in all that time I thought, believed I was a resident of the N.H. section of Dania. I was told that when the sewer program want into effect we would get sewers. Now I pick up the paper the other day, the N.H. sec tion is ruled out — no sewers. Now what IS the right answer? Mayor Salvino: What street do you live on? Thomas Lindemann North East Second Place, right below the church. Mr. Philpottt. He gets sewers. Mayor Salvino: Certainly he does. Thomas Lindeman: I'm just going by what the papers said. I want to find out. • .lgM 1. Mayor Salvino: Well there is a section there that won't get sewers, but O your place will be seweredl Thomas Lindeman: That's all I wanted to know. Commissioner Young: As far as the North East section, I think possibly.... I am not taking up for the newspapers because many times they are in error. A But I think what he had reference to was North of the Dania Cut-Off Canal. Thomas Lindeman: Well now, wouldn't it have been much easier if the Com- mission made a copy of that plat laying out just the sewage system that is going to be installed? That way everybody would know what is happening. • Mr. Philpott: Could I interject something here? This is the notice that went out. Mr. Culverson says it was during the time he was City Manager here. It went out to about 2,000 people in the area. And the question was "What is the area to be sewered?", and the answer was "The developed areas East of the FEC tracks with facilities available for service to other areas". Thomas Lindeman: North-and South where? It don't say how for up North or how far down South. You are just reading.... Mr. Philpott: Well I read what was sent out. Thomas Lindeman: Yea, but it didn't state that area at all. You are just evading the issue. That's all I have to say. But I just want to make that suggestion to make a copy of that plat there and mail a copy`to everybody.. Commissioner Grammer: Do we have a copy of that area-.so we can check this one street he is living on? Commissioner Zenobia: He gets sewers. In fact, we just had a change order in that area, from the streets into the alleys. Mr. Philpott: That is HE section North of NE 2nd Street and East of the Church? Yes, that area is sewered. Thomas Lindeman: Well I am just saying what the papers said. That is what I want to clarify. Now that it is clarified, I am satisfied. Mr. Springer, 300 Block, S.W. 15th St:: Is the alley on S.W. 15th Street in the 300 block sufficient for sewer servic8, or is that going in the • street? Mr. Philpott:, The sewer is in the alley. Mr. Springer: Thank you. • Tony Trentacosta: I own the motel on SE Sth, between 2nd and Federal Hwy., my problem here is that I have to run hundreds of feet... I don't know much about the Sewer Project, I am just wondering how much line does it take for a line to run to the main line? Mr. Philpott: Well, I don't know what the situation is there, 0 ' Mr.-Barry: This gentleman owns, I believe it is 4 buildings, and his septic tanks happen to be in the rear of these buildings, which neceasitates running them from the back of his building out to-tha front.' However, before he gets out to the front, he also ban two more septic tanks .which have to'be picked up. Now, which is going to be cheaper or which is going to be more expensive, I am not at this time going to say because I don't know exactly where these septic tanks are located. We are 'goingto, try to'put these things as access- able or as near as possible for his usage as we can. It is the only way we have of putting in the sewer there. There is no alley there. Tony Trentacosta: There is an easement there. Mr. Barry: There is a part utility easement theret it is about 3 foot wide. So I don't think we can get in there. He also has a problem on a piece of property that is on Federal Highway. But he has a connecting piece with that piece from 5th Street into this property. In other words, the pro- petty extends back to a piece that expends out-to 5th Street. Tony Trentacostas You see, on this cottage he is talking about if he does anything for me, let me show you this.... (At this point Mr. Trentacosta showed a map to the members of the City Commission) O Mr. PlLlpctt: Well, we will have to do' the best we can to serve the thing. Tony Trentacostas Yea, I am sure you will, but I want to make sure that nothing happens in the future. If I have plumbing trouble it is going to • be a problem. Mr. Philpott:. Well, this gentleman's problem-is not unique at all. He has a septic tank that is clear on the back of the lot with no existing rightPof-way. And so the only thing we cant-do is drop off a lateral at the beat possible place so that he will have the shortest possible run, or • if the City Commission wants to, and the gentl4an is willing, we can work out a change order agreement with the contractor if you will furnish the right-of-way to add some sewer in there. There are a lot of things that can be done. But there are elements of cost invloved in it, cost to him and cost to the city. And we can see what can be done and how much it will cost,. but the decision is not ours to make as to what you do. It is your • decision. But this is a case where we just can't reach his buildings. And he is talking about constructing:•.some additional buildings, or an additional building, which would go right on top of the shortest was out at the present time. And he asked me if I thought it was a good idea to build a building on top of a sewer lateral, and I told him I didn't think it was. We are perfectly willing to try to work these things out the beat • possible way for everybody. But it does cost money to add these things. Somebody is going to have to give up some property in order to get the line in there. But all we can do is figure out how it could be done. But we can't make the decision what is going to be done. That would have to be between the property owner and the City Commission. • Tony Trentacostas How much of a job is it to make an allay? Who is in charge of that? Mayor Salvinot Mr. Sparkman, can you answer that question? Mr. Sparkman!. What is the question please? • Tony Trentacostas What is the cost of running an allay? . Mr. Sparkmans Time element more than the cost. There are contracts to be considered. • Tony Trentacostas Well something has to be done. We just can't leave it the way it is. Mr. Sparkman: They can come down the street. That is the way they planned them. I don't have anything;., to do with that. Just ask me about the right- of-way, and I will tell you that. Tony Trentacostat How about the piece that I have'on the Highway, what do you want me to do with that? I want to put a.couple of buildings on there and where will I put the sewer? , I told him it would be alright to put the building on the sewer line and he said No, it wouldn!.t be any good. • Mr. Philpott: I don't...of course, I am talking towards Mr. Walden right now, but if he gave the City a deed to a strip of land down through there upon which a sewer could be added, there would probably be required an additional manhole on 2nd Avenue in order to make the connection, and there would be a run of probably 8 inch pipe I imagine ,to reach wherever you want -.' to go, wherever you want to make your connections, plus one or more additional -17- manholes, plus whatever cost to the contractor there is involved in doing • the clearing necessary to get through there. Those things can all be figured out. But, number one, the City Commission is going to have to work to make those investigations; and number two, it would be then up to the City Commission to decide whether they are going to spend the money; and it would be up to you to decide whether you want to give the right-of- way. • Tony Trentacosta: Well the sewer is never going to work the way it is planned now. You can never come around with elbows and zigo and zags. Are we going to run the stuff through it that way? There is no use in you having trouble later on. What is going to happen later if I have any trouble there, I am going to kick it right back to the City. Before I • do anything I want to have some kind of a paper here stating that it is going to work alright, because I am no engineer and I am no plumber. We have a business there that only operates 3 or. 4 months of the year. And _ I am looking at the cost of this thing too. City Manager Neff: May I ask Mr. Philpott a question? . In regards to this, • Mr. Trentacosta spoke to me about this. Is it not possible for him to . come from his back building straight through his blacktop and'out to the main sewer? Mr. Philpottt Well yes, except that he indicated to me he was going to build an additional building. on the lot. • Tony Trentacostat No, no, he is talking about something different. No, , it is not possible to come through that building. You have;ito come around that building, and zig-zag. Isn't that right Mr. Engineer? , Mr. Barry: You would have to come around the back of the building, and • then come out to pick up. But he would have to go the other way anyhow to pick up. He would still have the same curvature in his lines no mat- ter which way if he goes out the front or out the back. The same curv- ing of lines would occur. City Manager Nefft Well I think that this here is peculiar because of • the fact that thin building when it was originally built was built right on the back end of his lot where there was no alley, where the two lots abutted each other; and then the center of this lot was blacktopped. Tony Trentacosta: There is no blacktop there. • City Manager Nefft. In the middle where your driveway is there.is blacktop. Tony Trentacostat Yes. City Manager Neff: I'm talking about the building in the back now. • Tony Trentacosta: Yes, there is blacktop in front of that. But the building still extends past the blacktop. The septic tank is about 10 feet from the edge. You have to come around to the edge of the building and come around. You have to make sort of a "U" shape there. Mr. Philpott: You can get, I judge from glancing at the profile, you can • give him depth in there. He would have a little fall, he would have enough fall to reach this. Mayor Salvino: Anybody else in the audience have anything else to bring up? Elmer Nitsche, 271 S.W. 8th St.: I would like to ask Mr. Philpott. Mr. Houston stated that he saw muck. Now today I was at .the corner of 13th St. and tad Ave. They had ,just got through pouring re-inforcing concrete. Now there was a big 6 inch pomp on one side, and the water was running onto this fresh concrete. Now, 'the inspector, did you notice that?. Did you see it? , If they had a pump on either aide it probably would have been alright. But they had a pump on one side and all that water was going right through the • concrete. -18- • 0 Mr. Barry: Thirteenth Street? ® Mr. Nitsche: Thirteenth Street and Second Avenue. Mr. Barry: We didn't pour any concrete at 13 St. and 2nd Avenue. Mr. Nitschet You certainly did pour some today. I saw the truck leave. • Mr. Barry: Maybe you mean yesterday. Mr. Nitsche: No, it was today. Mr. Barry: Well we have nothing out on 13th St, and 2nd Ave. except just • a blank pipe. Mr. Nitschet That is what I am talking about, the pipe that comes up out of the sewer line, Mr, Barry: Well we didn't pour anything in there today. • Mr. Nitschet I saw the man just leaving, and the water, and they have a big 6 inch pump. Mr. Barry: Well that has been rocked in, 13th Street, for two or three days. Was it concrete, or was it road rock? • Mr. Nitschet Concrete, fresh concrete. They just had the mixer. I was them pull the mixer away. Mr. Philpott: Well will you check that and sea? • Mr. Nitsche: Then the next thing I am worried about is as you coma up with these lines, they put the lateral down through the center of the street, and then when they come back to find these pipes, now these boys themselves who are putting them in can't even find where the IT' comes up out of the lateral. Isn't there some provision made where you have some marking for the future so. that in the future the City will know exactly where each one is?. . • Mr. Philpottt Yes, we have a contractor who keeps cut sheets on that giving the dimensions to each one of those, Mr, Nitschet Alright, than the next question. is, some people say the pipe will be 3 foot below the ground where it comes in the lot. Is there any ape- 0 cific`height^. that you are bringing those laterals in? Mr. Barry: We have a minimum cover, as we call it, at 30 inches. Where a house is back let's say 100 or 75 feet we generally drop down to about 3 ft. But we have' a minimum of 30 inches. • Mr. Nitschet Alright, now I have about,70 foot lines. Now I have been around construction, not exactly sewers, I am not an expert on that, but I have been around construction all my life. Most pipes come out of a house at what, about 10 inches under the ground? Now, in 70 feet you should have about 8 more inches of fall, approximately. Alright, that is 2 foot, maybe it is only 18 inches. Now what are we going to do when we hit the pipe? Are we going to have a sharp drop there? Mr. Barry: That is entirely up to your plumber. We can't come any higher than a 30 inch cover and leave a safe passageway over the top of this pipe. If we bring it up to 2 feet out in the road, and some big heavy truck runs over it, the City of Dania will be back in there repairing a lot of pipes. • Mr. Philpottt That isn't all either, but if the present building might in the future be abandoned and some other building was constructed and it re- quired the lateral to be a foot deeper then there would be more trouble. We have to get it daeptanough to serve anything that is -in sight in the way of future construction. Mr. Nitsche: Well what should be our line up? You know that 90 percent of these houses, I am talking about the SW corner here, they run above the footing, they always made the soil bank above the footing. And you only have, well, I don't think over 10 inches of drop. Where are we going to get that fall, someplace a sharp drop? I am looking ahead, • 0 Mr. Barryt Well I can only tell you what has been done, that they come out and they get as close as they can, and still get a break, They come out of ® the existing lateral as we put it in and they put a 45, and a piece up, and a 45 and they take off at the height that is necessary to service their buildings. It has worked all over the country, Mayor Salvino: Anybody also have anything to bring up? • Mr. Jamea Yesford, 279 S.W. 8th St.t I think we are interested in saving the City money, right? You want to go down the alleys and you want to go down the street so you can save? Mr. Philpottt No, on the Sth Street area the City Commissioners have al- ready ordered the sewers to be out in the alleys and that is in process. Mr. Yesford= If it would be cheaper to go down the street, but then the expense goes on to the property owner, why can't they stub the difference to the septic tank, what would be from the alley to the street? • Mayor Salvinot You mean on your property? Mr. Yesfordt Right. Commissioner Youngs. That wouldn't be legal would it? • City Attorney Waldent No, the City can't go on private property. Mr. Yesford: They can't go, but they can defer the difference,. and save the 900 feet of pipe which he is interested in, which costs more than stub- bing in a little further. My septic tank is approximately in the middle of my lot. It doesn't make any difference to me. I think that is what this • is all about, it costs one man more than somebody else. Mayor Salvino: If we go on your property, then we have to go on everybody elses property. Mr. Yesfordt That's what I sm talking about. It would lie cheaper to do • tlat than to make these extra lines go down the street in one place and an alley in another. Commissioner Grammert Let me try to answer him on this...I think he figures when we run this 900 feet, he thinks it is going to cost them individual property owners. • Mr. Yesford: No, the 900 feet, or whatever it is along the cemetery where there are no houses on one side and houses on the other. So if he goes down the street he takes one.side of each aide of 9th Street and down the street on 8th, and on down the line until he'comes past these places where there are no alleys. In otherr.woids, the way I see it, he is putting in extra sewer lines for only a half of a service. So the property owner is going to pay a little more. if it was measured .from the septic tank to the, alley, and from the street, and give them the difference in whatever pipe it is then that is all the trouble it would be. 2 Mayor Salvino: I guess Mr. Philpott could answer your question. Mr. Philpott: Well I can't because I don't know whether, even if you thought it was a good idea, whether you could or not. It actually might cost less money. That would have to be looked into too. But I know this much it will cost a whole lot less to lay a 4 inch sewer pipe than it would an 8 inch sewer complete with manhole and everything else. But whether you could do it at all or not, I don't know. Mayor Salvino: Anybody else in the audience? Mr. Riggers, S.W. 15th Street: Mr. Philpott, you have a .line going along SW 2nd all the way through. Do you know what size pipe that is? Mr. Philpott: Storm drains? Oh I don't recall. Mr. Riggers: I remember a few years ago the County authorized you to go �.;.. ahead. -t -29- Mr. Philpott: Well that was under contract with the State Road Department. • Mr. Houstoni That's right, and the city at that time realized and figured on putting storm drainage on along the old Dixie. I was just wondering whether that has been taken into consideration. Mr. Philpott: Yes, it has been considered and we have a little bit of • money invested in that job down there, but the State Road Department has never given us a standard section that we could use over there. Therefore we can't locate the catch basins, and therefore we can't deliver the plans for the storm drainage system to the City. I wish we could. • Mr. Houston: I just wondered if there has been any contract in regards to the paving of the Old Dixie Highway. That money was appropriated. City Manager Neff: Mr. Houston, Mr. May may•I answer Mr. Houston? I talked with Mr. Black yesterday in regards to this and I called his office again today in regards to this very matter, he wanted an instrument sent • to the State Road Department or to .the,County Road Office, stuting,that we had allocated this money for the drains and he would proceed from there. Mr. Houston: Who is Mr. Black? City Manager Neff: Mr. Black is the Chief Engineer. • Mr. Houston: Well we have had the moeny allocated for three years. City Manager Neff: This is what I understood, this is why I would like to see something done on it right away. • Mayor Salvino: Anybody else in the audience have anything to bring up? Gene Pelliccia: I'm up again? Mayor Salvino: One minute, I will give you one minute. • Gene Pelliccia: I just want to ask one question. It seems to me that the Commissioners, whoever signed this contract, signed a 1958 blueprint. Mr. Philpott: No. Gene Pelliccia: I take that back. You keep saying if we go down the street . is one thing, if we go in the alleys they cost additional money. Are you trying to tell us if you are going down the street it comes under the contract. But if you detour elsewheres is that extra? Mr. Philpott: It is extra for a lot of reasons, but the main reason is that it is going to take a whole lot more of pipe to do it that way. Gene Pelliccia: Irregardless, that wasn't the question. The question is this.. When you detour other than the street you are going down, it costs extra. Not the property owner, not to someone else, .the contractor who is putting in the sewer is going to ask for extra, because he is going 2 or 3 feet out of his way. Mr. Philpott: No, no. Gene Pelliccia: In other words, if you don't go down the street and you go down an alley it will be the same as if going down the street? No extra charge? •. Mr. Philpott: Well I don't know, if there is an extra charge or not. It all depends on the circumstances in each case. Mayor Salvino: There won't be any extra charge to the property owner. City Manager Neff: Mr. Mayor, .maybe I can answer his question. Everything in this contract, sir, is on a unit basis. Now if he has so many feet.... i' -21- • • • "V number of feet in the street at a certain price, he is paying so much. If it is taken out of the street and put in the alley he has "V number • there paid at a certain price. He is paid for what he puts in.... Gene Pelliccia: Up and above his original contract. City Manager Neff: No. This is part of his contract. His whole contract is on a unit base price. And he gets paid for only what he does. • Gene Pelliccia: That doesn't answer the question clearly. What I am trying to bring out...if this man is going to get a:million and a half, just to quote a figure, for a million feet of pipe... City Manager Neff: Let me interrupt you. You are wrong already because • his contract is not based on a set figure. His contract is based on what he does at the unit cost price. Gene Pelliccia: I am not quoting the contract. I am not quoting what he is going to do and what he isn't going to.do. All I want is a simple answer to the fact that if he goes under, or detours, contractors contract which • calls for a million feet, and he puts in a million and ten feet, is he going to charge the City of Dania for the extra 10 feet? City Manager Neff: Yes sir. Mayor Salvino: That's right. • Gene Pelliccia: That's all I want to know. Because if he starts detouring here and there it isn't going to cost a million and seven. It may cost 2 and a half. City Manager Neff: Well it might cost less, because he might not put in a • million feet, he may put in 999,090 feet. Gene Pelliccia: I doubt very much if it will cost less. City Manager Neff: Well this is something you don't know, and neither do I. • Gene Pelliccia: Then you are quoting something you don't 7mow. Mayor Salvino: Anybody else? Mr. Culverson, do you have any questions to ask? Lester Culverson: No, I don't have any questions to ask, but I would like to say a few words being as I, more or less, I asked you for this meeting. Mayor Salvino: Would you please use the microphone? Lester Culverson: Yes sir. I came down the other night and I asked you for this meeting. I have been sitting up in Hallandale trying to mind my own little nest, but everytime I pick up a paper it seemed like there was certain • implications through the media of the news print, that there was some change orders made through the Northeast corner of the City Hall on the Sewer Pro- gram. I checked my mind. I checked everything else that I possibly could, and I have never made any changes in this. I came here in March 27, 1964, and I picked up the prints that they had here. I never changed them. I never changed anything at any time. I worked it all the way through. I worked very • closely with Mr. Walden, Mr. Philpott, Mr. Henann, and the City Commission. And I would like to say we finally got the job done, and I think we did a very good job at the time. But I mean, I didn't like the implication for the sim- ple reason it was getting to the people, and the people were getting to think was Mr. Culverson doing a job, or did he not do a job. And it was hurting my reputation. And in the future, if I ever went for a job, they would think • we are not going to give you ajob, look how you, pardon my language, look at how you messed up the Dania Sewer Program. Well I just want to state here and now I think I have been vindicated tonight. I have never made any changes in the Sewer Program whatsoever. And I think the Sewer Program we put together was a good,solid Sewer Program, and is as good as has been put out in South Florida for a long time. And I am proud of it, and I will stand behind it. • That is all I have to day. -22- Commissioner Hill: Mr. Philpott, while Mr. Culverson has the floor, I would like to ask you a question. Do you think that Mr. Culverson did an adequate and a fair job on the Sewer Program? Mr. Philpott: Well I don't know of any mistakes that Mr. Culverson made. The only thing he ever did that disturbed me was to prod us to get with it and get this thing going. • Commissioner Young: Well that was his job. Mr. Philpott: That was his job, and he was doing it as far as I know. But I don't know of any changes that Mr. Culverson made. If he made any, I never heard of it. Mayor Salvino: Anybody else in the audience have anything to bring up? There being no further business on the agenda, the meeting adjourned. . . • • .�7�I.t•L-�d-inc�/ral� Diary Thornhill City Clerk-Auditor' . • Frank Salvino Mayor-Commissioner -23- 1 . 41, l.Ms