HomeMy WebLinkAbout86143 - MINUTES - City Commission 0 MINUTES OF SPECIAL MEETING, CITY COMMIS"ION, CITY OF DANIA,
FLOP,IDA, HELD FEBRUARY 3, 1965,
The City Commission of the City of iani.a, Florida, met in
Special. Session in the Commission Room at the City IlaII .
0 Present were: MAYOR-COMMISSIONF,R FRANK SALM70
COMM,SS TON,ERS RORERT L. MZAl,IAtER
VERA L. lI7LL
S, ELLIS YOUNG
CARL '7.EVORIA
CITY MANAGER WILI.IAM G. NEFF
BUILDING INSPErMn rHARUS L7NDL•T1,Ali
CHIEF OF POLIrr VON= V77I1
CITY CLERIC MARY T710TIM i7LL
The meeting was called to order at 10:00 A.M. by Mayor Spl.-ino.
City Manager Neff. : If vou wish to, since you are al.l. here ,
decide to call one (Special. Meeting) that's up to vou, bbt as
it sets now this is just an i.n*ormal conrerence, to discuss a
!'ew points with Mr. Phi.lpott. That was the request, than was
made.
rommi.ssioner 7enobia: I think i.t ought to he a formal meeti.nl*
just in case there is anything that has to he decided.
Mayor Salvino: Well it is on tape anyway, Carl-, it don' t make
any difference.
Commissioner Zenobia: Yes, but you can't decide anything i.r it
is an informal meeting.
City Manager Neff: Well, it is your pleasure. I! you wish to
call this a meeting you are 4/5 hare.
Commissioner Grammer: Go ahead.
Mayor Salvino: Clerk, call the roll,
Grammer Here
Hill
Young Here
7,enobia Here
Salvino Here
I•`avor Salvino: Mr. Phil.nott.
Mr. Phil.pott: From the information that I had , we are here *o
discuss the alley problem again. I think we probahly ought to
cover the w11ole thing, maybe we can dispose o` it.at this meet-
:.; ing. In the beginning, and these are copies of the original
preliminary plans, everywhere possible we would put the sewers
in the alley. From time to time we discussed the lack of rights-
of-way, for two different purposes. There were actually three
different purposes. One was to serve all the parcels on Federal
Highway without having to build sewers on the Federal Highway,
that was one group of parcels O'' right-of-way that were reouired.
They were not necessary for the construction of the main part of
the system. They were only necessary to ,serve those Parcels.
Then we had to have parcels upon which we 'could build pumping
stations. Those Parcels were absolutely necessary.for the con-
struction of the system. Then we had a third group of parrel.s
which. represented areas which we called alleys that either- didn't
exist: or whic`, only existed partly. Now tiiose, that group of
parcels , was at the pleasure of. the City. You either. get those
parcels or you don't. But they didn 't effect the construct.ion
of the sewer system, because if you don't put the sewers in the
alleys you ran nut- them in the streets. Well. that was discussed
somewhat over a considerable period of time, but up until Less
than a year ago there wasn' t any great hurry shout it because
there wasn't any financing system available up until, as I re-
member, about 1.0 or. 11 months are . Then the Cit-y decided to
proceed to finance the sewer system east of Federal Highway.
And it started cut, I recall a visit to Atlanta with some of
the Commissioners. It started out as a Government Loan. Well,
of course, when you get a government loan or grant, , ,somebody,
usually the City Attorney, has to certify that the r. i.g"t-of:-
way is available for the construction of the system. That' s
what brought this parti.cular set: of plans in to exi.stance and
some more then detailed conversation- over a neri.od of a month
or so between myself: and the City Manager and the City Attorney,
brought forth a letter from .the City Attorney addressed to me
dated April 6, 1964 . Here is what he says :
"I am writing you in my capacity as City Attorney of
the City of Dania. Our new City Manager, Mr. Culver-
son contacted me last week after he .had evidently had
a general discussion with you concerning background
information on the City of: Dania sewer project. Mr.
Culverson instructed me to take the necessary steos
required to obtain acgaisition-of' the,necessary rights-
of-way. I have indicated to Mr. Culverson that I , as
City Attorney, have little knowledge as to recent
planning concerning the .sewer project. That. is , I
have not been a participant in any of the discussions
with the Housing and Home Finance Agency in Atlanta,
and, I have not participated in any of the informal
discussions the City Commission may have had with your
•
firm. Naturally I will abide by the instructions of
Mr. Culverson in the matter, but I ask that you sug-
gest to both of us what general area in the city
should be the starting point for obtaining any ease-
ments or rights-of-way for sewer lines. After agree-
ing upon the area, the first step would seem to in-
volve obtaining legal descriptions of easements . I
assume you will furnish the legal descri.ptions, so
that we can give some to a local title company for
the preparation of title certificates as to the record
owners of the easements . I suggest Lauderdale Abstract.
Title Company. If you will advise Mr. Culverson and
me generally as to where to start I will he happy to
handle the legal details . I assume that i.t may he
necessary for the city to pay considerations for certain
of the easement rights and I can even foresee the neces-
sity of condemnation suits. After tale prel.i.mi-nary work
• is done it would seem to me that we should have a meet-
ing with the city Commission to discuss payment of the
costs of any easements.,'
Mr. Philpott: That was April 6, 1964. Well of. course I have
been working on this problem for quite some time. So all I
had to do was make some more copies of what I already had and
what had already been given Mr. Culverson prior to that . On
April 8, I wrote Mr. Walden as follows:
"Dear Mr. Walden:
In connection with acquisition of sewer easements in
Dania we are attaching plan sheets showing most of the
acquired easements together with tabulation sheets
showing most of the descriptions with alternate posi-
tions for most of the laterals . A third possible .
position of the laterals would be to take 1-1/2 feet
off of each of the listed lots. We ba ve not attempted
to provide descriptions of unrecorded and unnumbered
parcels . It may be that such information is available
at City Hall."
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• Mr. Phi.lpott: And then to that. and there was a copy to Mr.
Culverson. To that letter was attached these plans. Now these
arc the original preliminary plans and showing the sewers in the
alley. But they show places where, according to the c,*tv man,
and according to the record plats, the right-of-way either didn't
exist or it was only partial. Now that was on April. 8, 1.964 .
• Now these alleys, the alley north of Seventh Street , north of
Sixth Street , and north of Fifth Street , from the best- i.nforma-
ti.on that I had either the right-of.-way di.cl not exist at al.l.,
or else it wasn't of sufficient wi.dth to construct sewers,, 5
or 7-1/2 fact. Now my information is not complete because as
Mr. Walden points out in this letter, a copy of which weht to
• Mr. Culverson by the way, that the only way you could find out-
for sure would be to get a certificate from the abstract com-
pang. So here is a plan showing the required easements for all
purposes, and here is a list of the descriptions. And towards
the end of the list we have here in Dania Fleights , Bl.octcs 2 and
5, existing impassable alley, needs 11, feet clear, , feet now,
• question mark. In other words, the best information I could
get was ,wi.thout becoming a lawyer, was that there i.s a five foot
right-of-way there. Dania Heights Extent:ion, Blocks l and 6,
existing alley 10 feet , question mark. Now we can't- build a
sanitary sewer system in a ten foot right-of-way. The manhole
bottoms are too big. You can 't; get it in there. Twelve feet
• we can just make it, ten feet we can't. Dania Heights Cxten-
tion, Blocks 2 and 5, existing impassable alley, need 1.F feet
clear, 5 feet now, question mark. I didn't know. From the
best information I had . Then I had others here, Poinciana
Park, Block 2 , Lots 1 and 3, the east 15 feet, and so forth.
Together with all of the descriptions of the little easements
• we needed for the laterals going mostly to serve the Federal
Highway front. Now that was on April 8th. My letter together
with this and this was addressed to Mr. Walden with a copy to
Mr. Culverson of April 8, 1964. At that time I didn't know
whether any progress was going to be made on these easements
or plan or anything, but I did know this , that at that time we
• were still talking about a government loan. Well I knew that
the City Attorney was going to have to certify that the right-
of-way was there . And I didn't know whether it was there or
not, so we came down and made. . .now mind you, uu to this time
all of our construction drawings were 1.n accordance with this
plan right here. We had construction drawings complete for these
• sewers in these alleys. I didn't know whether that was going to
come to pass or not, but I felt, in fact I was directed , to pro-
ceed as fast as possible to get the plans out so that the sewer
system could be started . So we came down and resurveyed the
streets. And we made construction drawings for the streets. So
that in case we had to certify that we had the right-of-way. and
• that we did not have the right-of-way, I could make that transfer.
Now mind you, those sheets some time or another were delivered
here . I didn' t actually accompany them with a letter. But there
wasn't any question of what had to be done. Now we come up to
advertising for bids . We still don't have these rights-of-way.
We must have a sewer in southwest Seventh Street in order to serve
•- the frontage on the north side of Seventh Street in the absence of
a proper easement in which to construct the sewer. Now if I had
left these sewers in these alleys as shown on the original draw-
ings it would have taken about 12 hundred feet more of sewer or
some 10 to 12 thousand additional money, over and above the cost
of putting the sewers in two streets , because we had then 3 lines
• south of Seventh Street in the alleys, we would have only 2 lines
in the street. Now, that is the situation we have right now. You
can do, well, you can do whatever you please, but there are several
things you can do. You can hold up construction in this area until
You have a right-of-way in which to construct those sewers in those
alleys . Then we can put all. the sewers back in the alleys like we
7 liad them in the first place. Or, if you .don't want to wait, and I
don 't know how long it will take the City Attorney, we will have to
z': • guess at that, the only thing you can do is to leave these in the
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streets from Seventh Street north, where sae don't have the
right-of-way for the sewers in the alleys, and put- these
sewers back in the alleys at an additional cost of some 10
or 12 thousand dollars. Those are two things you can do.
Now under the bond contract., as I recall , I never did have
a complete copy of the bond contract, but as I recall it:,
under the bond contract the City Attorney had to certify to
the. bond buyers that the right-of-way was in oxistance for
the construction of this system. So you got the monev on the
basis that you had the right-of-way. ' "You didn't have the
right-of-way. The only thing we can do is put them in the
streets or lenve them out. well, of course, that is the third
alt.ernati_ve, just don't build them,over there. 14ell., that 's
the whole thing. And I think the decision is up to the commis-
sion as to what to do. We can go back, take whatever time is
necessary to get these rights-of-way, or we can forget that ,
go ahead and construct these sewers in the alloys , at whatever
additional cost: it- takes, or leave it like it is.
Commissioner Zenobia : I 'd like to ask you a' question, Mr.
Philpott. Did you advise anybody of the change from the alleys
to the streets?
Mr. Philpott:: Both sets of plans were here all along, . You
mean in a conversation? 1 don't recall. There has been so
much tall, about this .
Commissioner Zenobia: 1 wasn' t on the Commission theft, but from
what I understand no one knows that this change was made, that 's
why I was wondering if anyone was told about it'.
Mr. Philpott: Well, the plans were here, I didn't. I don't
recall .
Mayor Salvino: What is the reason you can't .put them in 10
foot right-of-ways?
Mr. Philpott: You can 't construct them in 10' foot right-of-ways
because the bottoms of the manholes are too wide, and you have
got to have excavation room outside of that yet. . In some cases,
I don't recall exactly what the situation is up in here, but in
some cases you run into curb's along side which means that you
would destroy the burb and have to replace it and all that. So
in other words you are getting off on private property in order
to construct your system, which somebody has certified that you
are not going to do.
Commissioner Grammer: Mr. Phi.l.pott I would l.i.ke to ask you when
this change was made from the alleys to the street was (here
copies of this sent to the City Hall or was this mailed direct
to the bonding company that we are bonded with now, showing; these
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plans changed.
Commissioner Young: I think you mean the State and Federal. Agency.
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Commissioner Grammer: That 's right.
Mr. Philpott: Wel.l. , the State Board of Health has copies of the
construction drawings , and the H14FA does on the grant However,
you can make whatever changes you like you are not tied down to
e.
anything.
Commissioner Young: Now you said from Seventh Street north.
` ]'r. Philpott: We don't have right-of-ways. We don't have any at
"; - the west end of those blocks at all.
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® Commissioner Young: You got some that don't have alleys , and you
have got a couple alleys that are just. . . .
Mr. Philpott: They're half.
Commissioner Young: That's right. They: are half alleys . Well ,
O what about from Seventh Street south?
Mr. Phil.pott: You can put them in alleys from Seventh Street
south if clear, but at an additi.onal. cost from between 1.0 and 12
thousand dollars. Because it is going to take 3 lines south of
Seventh Street to get them in alleys, but only 2 to get them i.n
streets . You see, if you don't get your rights-of-way north of
Seventh Street , you will have to have in order to serve the Pro-
perty if you construct the system, you will have to have a line
on Seventh Street. Then you will .have to have a Line in the alley
south of Seventh Street , you will. have to have a line in this a1ley
• south of Eighth Street, and you will have to have a line in the
alley south of. Ninth Street- ,that is three. If you nut a line on
Seventh Street, Eighth Street, and Ninth Street it takes two.
And there is about 12 hundred feet difference in the total longth
of the system south of Seventh Street.
City Manager Neff: Mr. Philpott, May I ask a question? Is this
the only trouble area that you see as far as alleys are concerned?
Mr. Philpott: So far as I know.
City Manager Neff: We're talking -about three streets .
Mr. Philpott: Well, we are talking about two streets or three
alleys. Well, now wait a minute, it all depends. If you want to
clear up the situation north of Seventh Street you have three
more alleys involved .
. City Manager Neff: How many more?
Mr. Philpott: Three.
City Manager Neff: A maximum then of five? Five alleys or four
streets?
Mr. Philpott: Six alleys and five streets.
City Manager Neff : Six alleys versus five streets.
Commissioner Young: So you still. have 12 or 1.3 hundred additionAl. .
Mr. Philpott: Well no, it won't quite. In 'other words, the far-
ther north you get , you see the railroad emerges so the streets
get shorter. Actually it will always, there will always be a
Little more footage to get into the alleys than the streets, but
it wouldn't be that much more,depending on what you do up here
On Seventh Street.
Commissioner Grammer: Mr. Philpott I would like to ask you, under
this change on the lateral , I mean for my impression of this, when
we started out with this , this is the plan that we took to Atlanta:
I kept my copy, I was given a copy of this and I think all five of
• us Commissioners had a copy of this . This is the last plan that I
seen of these sewers.
Mr. Philpott: This is the pumping areas.
Commissioner Grammer: Yes , but I was under the impression that
we were covering all this area, omitting area "X? which is the
golf course, and these two little parcels, which were left out in
the southeast section which are shown left-out here.
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• Mr. Philpott: As far as pumning areas are concerned, that's true.
These pumping stations will serve these areas as shown on here.
City Manager Neff: You see Bob, I think what he is trying to point
out: to you is the pumping station will serve this if and when the
sewers and laterals are put in, but this is the area that they wi.1.1
• cover. Isn' t this right.?
Mr. Philpott: Yes, that's right.
city Manager Neff: But the construction of the Laterals and so
forth in the original plan there. . .
Commissioner Grammer: Well that I understand now, but at the
time that we were talking sewers I was under the impression that
this area where it is Lined out was going to be covered with sewers ,
except. area "X" and .this parcel and here is two little pieces in
this section.
•
Mr. Phil.pott: Well no, there is no place to put a line.
Commissioner Grammer: But on the discussion of how we were assess-
ing our undeveloped areas we were going back 150 feet.
• Mr. Philpott: Where you build a sewer, a collecting sewer.
Commissioner Grammer: Well I was under the impression they were
going to be built there, then they would have to pick it up and
run it to these subdivisions. Were you under that impression. . . .
• Mr. Philpott : If we have a sewer down this street right here
then we would go into this acreage 150 feet because- it is served.
If you build this sewer down Hallandale Beach Boulevard this
acreage would all be picked up on the basis of 1-90 feet on each
side. But it is still acreage. And. there ,still. are undeveloped
areas here, here, and all over this area. So this map refers to
• pumping areas , in fact, I think it says so somewhere on that. It
is the area processed to show the area to 'be served by the pumping
station, not by the collecting system because the collecting sys-
tem couldn't even be built in some of these areas. The streets
aren't: there, the property isn't up to grade, , this isn't devel.-
oped , there aren't any ri.ghts-of-ways.
•
Mayor Salvino : Any more questions?
Commissioner Grammer: Yes, I would still like to know where
those two sets of plans are that was sent to City Hall showing
these changes from the alleys to the streets. I. have never seen
them. This is the only plan that I have received showing where
these sewers was going to be until they were out for bias. The
people have been calling me and this is the plan that I received.
They ask me such and such a street,are they going to be i.n the
streets or alleys. I turn to this plan and I check it out, and I
say it's in the alley or it 's in the street..
Commissioner Young: Mr. Philpott, cohere you go down the streets,
naturally someone has to tear up a little of the si.dewall: on each
side for the lateral to connect in. Now who is responsible for
replacing the sidewalk?
• Mr. Philpott: The contractor.
Commissioner Young: That's the contractors responsibility?
City Manager Neff: That 's why he is taking the photographs .
• •
• Air. Philpott: You see tl,ern is an item in the. contract for
site restoration to but it hack the way it was.
Commissioner Young: Yes but I was wondering if there was any
technicalities involved there.
• City Manager Neff: The only thing, Mr. Young,i_s that the reason
he took the photographs is that if: you had a sidewalk in front
of your house that was already damaged , he is not responsible
to put that back into Al shape when he gets done. This is the
reason that they have been going around photographing all the
areas ' in the city. Because he only is required to put- it back
• in the condition that it was when he started.
Mr. Philpott: This particular contractor kind of had the cure on
that . lie was almost forced to put back a sidewalk that was never
there in the first place. Fortunately he had photographs to shot,
that it wasn' t there.
•
commissioner Zenobia: Getting back to this set of plans . Mr.
Phil.pott; did you bring this set: of plans to City Ball or send
it, the one that; was changed', to any particular part of the City
Hall or anything?
• Mr. Philpott: To the Northeast corner.
Commissioner Zenobia: In other words , the c�,ange was sent to
the City of Dania.
Air. Philpott: Both sets were here , were delivered here.
Commissioner Zenobia: Did you have any di.scussi.on with anybody
about these changes?
Mr Philpott: well we discussed this whole problem off and on
over a long period of time and a good many times with the City
• Manager. This thing isn't anything new. Every time tt- is sewer
business comes up and comes to Life again in Dania we get back
to the same problem, where are we going to nut. them.
Commissioner Zenobia: I only asked this because I have spoken
to all five commissioners and they indicate that they have never
• seen this changed plan.
Air. Philoott. : well of course, I don't know that, what happened
to them. I have no idea. I don't, know anything about the filing
system in the City Hall where anything could be. But I do know
that these things were all delivered and included, for instance,
• a copy of this. Where it is now, I wouldn't have the sli.ghtest
idea. Of course I , fortunatel.y. I guess for me , I wrote a letter
with this, so I can prove this came down here. Now the rest of
it was largely discussion. There is no use of building up a
file drawer full of correspondence on some 'of these matters that-
are actually detail. So we tallt about these things. This has
• been kind of a frustrating exneri.ence for me too. I mean, after.
all. , April Bth. Here we are in February, and still, have no right-
of-way. I do the best I can with what I have to do with. And I .
try to 1.001c out for the best interest of the city. And I couldn' t-
see, unless the City Commission directs it, going down here and
spending that extra money. Or if the City Commission wants to do
• it that way, if they are obligated to do it that way, that is the
business of the Commission. But it- Js not my business as the
Engineer to build up the cost of the job. It is my business to
keep it down. There are a lot of reasons for that . You have your
financing, and financing is difficult. You have been through that.
You know that . You don't spend anymore money than you have to,
• Maybe in this case you have to do it. But I don't, want to be the
one that says so.
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O Commissioner Grammer: Well I feel. this way on some of *hose
nll.ays, which I was told . and the people here Yondny night, was
told that it was an ordi.nnnce. Plow whether it is nr ordinance
or not; I have never personally. seen i.t. But when they was
constructing a home where there was an alley in *he hark. they
were forced to put their septic tank in the hack and I know on
0 some of Uicse alleys where they were forced to put their rank
there , ' if they hnve got to come al.l. the way around the house
it is going to cost the property owner about 3 ti.mes as much
as it: would be if they could go in the allay. Where I think
the people were forced to put: them in the back the people should
have.. some consideration on it.
Mr. Philpot:t: I don 't: think it has been over a week that- I have
Mown nbout that particular ordinance. 'If I had known about it,,
during all these discussions , I probably would have talked lonl!er
and louder and more often about these rights-of-way. I thought
I had bored everybody with the subject.
Commissioner Zcnobia : I would like to ask the City Building
Inspector, what: ordinance is that?
Building Inspector Lindeman: It 's in our ordinance hook.
Commissioner Zenobia: I looked for it yesterday, and I haven't
been able to find it.
Bui_ldi.ng Inspector Lindeman: Did you look in the hlack book?
Commissioner Zenobia: Could you show it to us Charlie?
Building Inspector Lindeman: I 'll have to check it out..
Commissioner Hill: Bob, what's the date on that sewer plan
that you have? I don't have a set of plans like that.
Commissioner Grammer: You haven't? When we went to Atlanta?
You haven't got- a plan? I have one. Did you get one Ellis?
This showing the lined out areas?
Commissioner Hill: What's the date on it?
Commissioner Young: Let me have a look at that, Bob, then I
will know a little more about it.
Commissioner Grammer: The date is September, 1958. This was. .
Commissioner Hill: Well I have a copy of those.
Mayor Salvino: You haven't any idea where the plans are at do
You?
City Clerk Mary Thornhill: Well I could go down there and check.
Commissioner Zenobia: Well if they were given to the City Manager
they must be in his files someplace down there. Did you ever run
J1. across them in Mr. Culverson's files. down there?
City Manager Neff: No, I haven't.
d
Commissioner Young: Well Mary would probably know.
City Clerk Mary Thornhill: Well I could_ go down and look but
Mr. Philoott always sent things .'to Mr. Culverson. ' And I don'i:
remember ever seeing any sewer plans.
Commissioner Young: You mean Mr. Culverson and Tubbs and Peters. . .
• . •
A City Clerk Mary Thornhill : And there was Grammer and Tnrnl.ey. . .
Commissi.oner Young: And four or five others.
Mr. Philpott-: Well this plan I have here, the one I t,nve used
all along in these right-of-way discussions is the original plan
showing the sewers in the alleys. And the purpose of these reel
lines is to show how you can get them i.n' the alley.
City Mannger Neff: Mr. Philpott, is there anv ctuestion ns to
these sewer changes involving any legal technicality that you
can think of? Have you already certified these to follow through?
Mr. Philpott: Oh no , I don' t expect to at all. All. you certified
to was that you have the right of way to wherever you are going to
construct the sewer system. If you have the right-of-wny. . .
0 City Manager Neff: It would be swell.
Mr. Philpott: Yes , because we don't know that we will get all of
these over on the Federal Highway. I£ we don' t get the ri.ght-of-
way we don't construct it, that 's all. No „ there isn' t any pro-
blems other than making up your mind what you want to do.
0 City Manager Neff; In other words you got three alternatives ,
this is it.
Mr. Philpott: Yes , really.
Commissioner Zenobia: Mr. Phi.inott, do you know approximately
what time of the year you sent these new plans to the City? Was
it under Mr. Culverson, or Mr. Tubbs, or who?
Mr. Philpott: Well , it was after, well as a matter of fact, we
came down here, Oh, about a year ago and made the surveys in these
streets so we would have a double thing so we could go either way.
It was right after we were authorized to proceed , finally, this
last time.
Commissioner Zenobia: You don't know which City Manager was in
then?
S Mr. Philpott: No.
Commissioner Grammer: It-rwould have to be Tubbs then.
Mr. Philpott: Well, I imagine. . .
0 Commissioner Young: Culverson came here March 16 , roughly.
Mr. Philpott: I imagine it was . . .oh, I don't, remember.
Commissioner Zenobia: Was it after that letter you got there,
0 ghat April 8th letter?
Mr. Philpott: After this? Yes .
Commissioner Zenobia: So that would be Mr. Culverson.
Commissioner Young: Well actually, if those plans were delivered,
strictly as an assumption, I would assume it would have been in
probably August, because Mr. Philpott was working. . . .
Mr. Philpott: Well , it was before then, Mr. Young because we made. .
I forget the date of the survey, I don't have it with me,when we
actually came down here and made "the additional survey so that we
could go whichever way we had to go when the time came, because I
didn' t want something like this to delay us and have to tel.l you,
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well I have to have another two or three weeks to draw un some
more plans here. So actually we dial a double job in that area.
Commissioner Zenobia: The thing I am getting at, Mr. Yount, is
evidently someone didn 't pass on the plans hecause the Commis-
sioners didn' t see them. And I am just trying to find out who
got the plans. Because everybody was under the impression that
they were going in the alleys throughout the whole city and all
the Commissioners, . .
Commissioner Young: Where possible.
•
Commissioner Zonobia: Where possible. And there was a change
and I am just trying to find out who got- the change and didn't
pass it on to the Commissioners. I 'm trying to pi.nnoint it
because we have had so many City Managers. If you just say City
Manager you can blame it on anybody. ' I want to know who the
• blame really goes to . I don't want to blame Mr. Tubbs if it was
Mr. Culverson and I don't want to blame anybody else i.f it- was
a certain person.
Commissioner Grammer: Do you recall, Mr. Philoott, whether t'-e
set of plans that went to the I suppose State Board of Health
• in Jacksonville, whir_h was forwarded on .to Atlanta under this
plan, was i.t this set of plans, or was it- the revised set of
plans showing. . .
Mr. Phil.pot:t: It was the construction drawing showing sewers in
the streets .
Commissioner Grammer: Well you see, that plan, which to my
knowledge I have never seen until the time to award the contracts.
Air. P! il.00tt: Well, I don't know what happened to them. They
were here. I don't know whether you are going to solve any,
• problems by trying to pinpoint these things or not. I would litce
to point out to you though that you could go any way you like. I
mean, there is no problems without solutions. In fact the prob-
lems are not large. It is a matter of do you want. to put them
in alleys, if so I would like to have directions because of the
additional. money involved. Do you want to go into these alleys
• off of Seventh Street, if so roughly speaking my advice would be
to get with it because the time is getting short. And those are
all the decisions that you will have to make. They are not com-
plicated decisions and there is nothing .to prevent you from
putting the sewers in the alleys.
CommissionerZenobia: Do these alleys North of Seventh Street-
have enough right-of-way?
Mr. Philpott. : No. No, they don't have any on the West end. You
see there is two subdivisions here. The subdivi.si.on on the Nast
had a partial alley and the subdivision on the Flest didn't- have
any. So we couldn 't serve this property out here at all. without
a fu1.1. alley.
Commissioner Zenobia: f'lall. some of them have a full- right-of-way
Ai
don ' t. they Mr. Philpott?
Aft. n- hilpott: Not these, so far as I know. Now the attorney is
going to have to find that out. I don't have any wal, of. . .the
i only source of information I have is the City Map and the record
plats . Now to go further than that every one of these lots i.n
volved in all of these allevs will have to have a certificate.
The City Attorney will have to have a certificate from the abstract
r company to see whether or not at sometime or other an additional
r' right-of-way has been acquired there and recorded . Now don't forget
.. —to—
rt' . .
'yaps;
• •
0 if it is not recorded it doesn't exist. I d'on't care i.f. the city
has had a dried down here for forty years , i.f it is not recorded
you don't have a right-of-way.
City Manager Neff: I would l.i.ke to ask Mr. Grammer a question.
no you feel that these people who are i.nsi.stant that these sewers
0 be placed in the alley would be receptive to f;i.vi.ng an easement to
the city.
Mr. Philpott: They already gave the easement-.
Commissioner Zenobia: Well .this is one alley nortli of Seventh
0 Street. That 's why I questioned that one.
City Clerk Hnry Thornhill: Wel.l in your- Danis Heights and Dania
heights Extdntiom•-Subdivisi.on-there is only a five foot easement.
Commissioner Grammer: Well I 'm not speaking of that alley. I'm
0 speaking of the alloys on 8th Street and 9th Street, which at the
tim e they paved the alley, these property owners there and I am
one of them, we dedicated a right-of-way which makes it at least
12 foot , it possibly could be a 1.5 foot alley. I can't recall,
but I know it is 12 feet. Those property owners dedicated this
right-of-way through there and they were told they were going to
0 get: the sewers in the alley, and the water main is out to the
north side of the alley. And they were forced to nut their septic_
tank in the back, and like I say, where it would he 50 foot to
connect to the sewer if they have to come to the front i.t is g..oinfy
to be 100 feet or more with about 3 or 4 different turns in there.
0 Commissioner Young: Well. you're going to have to have elbows .
Commissioner Grammer: That ' s right.
Air. Philpott. : Now at that same +-ime I think the Cortimi,ssion should
decide whether or not that same condition exists un here where. we
0 don' t: have enough alley. Whether those people were also forced
to nut their septic tanks in the rear. That might effect your
decision as to whether you want to get in ',here and get, these
rights-of-way or not. Down here there is no problem. We can nut
the sewers in the alleys as far as I know. In other.words, I
can't see underground but I think they can. But un here you
can't. This a11ey is not even oven in here, North Seventh Street.
This alley is paved , but I' don't know whether there is any right-
of-way or not. Whether it is paved or not has nothing to do with
it. We have got to have the ri.ght-of-way.
City Manager Neff: Well now , this i.s my question again, Bob. Do
you know what the feeling is of those people i.n that area that
Mr. Philpott is talking about? North of Seventh Street?
Commissioner Grammer: I don 't know about north of Seventh Street.
But from Seventh Street to the Cemetery I know tt+e feelinse. of every
one of them.
City Manager Neff: They are in agreement to this?
Commissioner Grammer: They are in agreement to. . .
City Manager Neff: : They either have or. will.
Mr. Philpott: The alleys are there, .south of Seventh.
City Manager Neff: I 'm speaking of north of. Seventh Street now,
Mr. Philpott: No , north of Seventh Street. Not as far as I know. ,
Commissioner Grammer: Where there is half of an alley I can under-
stand that you can't nut them in alleys . But I am speaking of 7th
Street,
et, 8th Street, and 9th .Street, where the property owners at
• one time or another. . . .Mr. Houston has grot some lots on et-h
Street, which originally come off his pronert-y or my nronert-v
or whoever is along those streets . Rut- it was or4ginally come
off each lot and dedicated for an alley. Then al_l the neonle
who built- in there were told to nut their srntic tar.lc in the
back because that 's where the sewer was goi.nf+.
e
Bob Houston: I just wonder if the. Commission is ready f-o throw
this open for discussion so that someone in the aurli.ence can
sny something.
Mayor Salvino: Any more questions?
•
Commissioner 7.,enobia: Mr. Mayor. . .
City Manager Neff: Lot me ask this question first. Mr. nhil.nott
if this is the case is there any question whether they can he nut
in south of Seventh Street?
•
Mr . Philpott: No . There is no question.
City Manager Neff: In other words this eliminates both areas.
Mr. Philpott : It's just going to take more money, but i.t can be
• done.
Commissioner. Zenobia: About. <12 ,000 you say?
Mr. "hi.lpott : S10 to 512, 000.
• City Manager. Neff: Now let me. . . .
Commissioner Young: Well you can knock a little off there t-oo for
the fact: that you don't have to .disrupt- the si-dewnl ks .
Mr. ^hilpott: Well it 's a good item.
•
City Manager Neff: Let me interject another. question I-fr. Phi.lnott.
This is all in a unit.- . So if is measurable. When you say In or
12 thousand it ill::goes by unit price.
Mr. Philpott: Yes , yes .
•
City Manager Neff: Then there is no problem. In other words if
they put in 10,000 more feet at so many. . .
Mr. Philpott: That 's right. That's just an estimated feet.
• City Manager Neff: Determined upon what has already been agreed
upon by the Commission as to cost.
Mr. Philpott: It will require a change order,wi-th a change in the
contract price for whatever it is .
• City Mrineger Neff: The total contract.
Mr. Philpott: The total contract- price.
Commissioner Grammer: Well. you take that like the 91-1,, street
alley Mr. Philpott. Sav that those sewers are going in the alley
which will only be serving 9th street if the sewer were in the
middle of 9th Street i.t will. he serving both sides of nth Street.
Wouldn't you go to a smaller lateral than you would he i.f you
just can' t have as much as you would a double?
Mr. Philpott: No. These are all. 8 inch lines. That's the minimum
• size. No , it: wouldn' t affect the size of the price. See the 8 inch
pine is a minimum size and that will serve a whole lot more customers
than you have in either case here.
Commissioner Grammer: An eight inch line you shouldn't have any
trouble getting them in the alleys .
_12_
a
• Commissioner Young: What about clot-in al.ong lnth , l.ith , 12th and
1.41 h Street?
Mr. phi.lpott: No problem there. There is alleys all. the way clown.
• City Manager Neff: Mr. Lindeman, did you find the ordinance?
Building Inspector Lindeman: I couldn't find i.+•.
Commissioner Zenobia: I 'd like to ask Mr. Houston a nunstion.
Bob, do you know whether there was ever an ordinance written
• when you were in?
Bob Houston: I can't tell you whether there was or not- , but
there was no plans approved after. . .
Commissioner 7.enobi.a: No, I 'm talking about septic tanks going
• in the back yard. Septic tanks going in the alleys .
Bob Houston: Well all I can tell you is this. I don't know
whether it is zoning or what but there were no plans for septic
tanks approved where there was an alley without the septic tank
being shown in the rear. I£ there was no al.ley plans were approved
• with septic tanks in the front. I don' t think there were any
houses or any businesses built, in the city after that went into
effect, And I can't tell you just exactly when it was, if 'the'
senti.c tank isn't in the rear i.f there was an alley.
Commissioner Zenobia: Well I knew this was being done. I was
just wondering if there was any written ordinance on it. It-
doesn't say anything there.
Building Inspector Lindeman: Yes, it says all water front lots .
or lots without alleys must have the septic tank in the front
yard.
• City Manager Neff: But inversely- it does not say. . .
Commissioner Zenobia: , It doesn't say you have to nut them in
the back yard.
• City Manager Neff: But now, Mr. Sparkmen, inversely this is not
the truth. In other words it does not say that if there is an
alley it must be in back of the house.
Mr. Houston: : To my knowledge everything up to Seventh Street
and part of the area between Seventh and Sixth as I recall is
• dedicated alleys in that area. They are 15 feet . Now whether
or not the city ever dedicated any' portion of the cemetery or
not I don 't recall. The fence :is set back so you can put alleys
there alright.
Mr. Philpott: There's room enough to build i.t.
Mr. Houston: I don't know whether the city ever made that change
or not, but I don't think it would ,be necessary.
Commissioner Young: Are you talking about on the south side of
the allev to the south of 9th street? Right next to the cemetery.
•
Mr. Houston: Yes. There was a portion of the alley dedicated.
Mr. Philpott: Well. physically there is room enough to construct
the sewer.
Mr. Houston: There's no ouesti.on about it, it is Dania. Now
between 6th and 7th as I recall, I think it is 6th and 7th. You
have a 15 foot alley dedicated a portion of the way down.
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j;.
• Commissioner Young: Yes , that only goes about half, way.
Mr. Houston: That 's right .
Commissioner Grammer: It don' t even go half way. That 's behind
this subdivision that. I just asked Luther about- .
•
7•Ir. llouston: That 's right. As I recall there i.s no obstruction
in that alley. I know we tried to get that alley through some
time ago , and the only obstruction we found , as I recall , the
only objection was a fence. Now if that portion of 7th Street
al.).ey was obtained then you would olimi_nate this additional. cost
• as I see it, 12 thousand dollars for putting another line down
is that right?
Mr. Philpott: Well there are three alleys . No wait a minute.
Afr. Houston: No the others some of them are going to ha very
• difficult to get a right-of-way on., One of them down there
between I think 3rd and 4tl�, there is a building that sets
within 2 feet or 4 feet.
Mr. Philpott: Well now, we don' t have a complete -right-of-way
between 4th and 5th Street. In other words we are in trouble
• with the alleys so far as I know on 4th and 5th, one way or
another.
Air. Houston: Now if you would do this I am sure you could
straighten this out a lot, because if you recall Mr. Philpott,
you and I walked this whole thing out in 158. And we had a
• lot of these sewers in the alleys . Now I know there is one
alley down there that is only 1.0 feet. And as I recall. , there
is a building that sets out. I can't recall just what street-
that is . Let me ask you this. now deep are these col.lecti.on
ramps going?
• Mr. Philpott: Well again of course they are fairly shallow.
Commissioner Grammer: They are 9 feet on St:h street.
Mr. Houston: Well you get up around 4th there. Are they the
same depth there?
Mr. Philpott: Yes . Well now wait a minute. They are shorter.
They would be. . .let 's see. Between. 4th and 5th street they are
shorter runs so applying the minimum grade you don't get quite
as deep in the ground. Possibly around 8 feet., something like
that.
• Air. IIouston: Do you know which alley the 10 foot one is?
Mr. Philpott: No I don't. The map shows some of them 5 , 7-1/2
and 10. Now whether the map is right I don' t know. However I
went back and checked the record plats and as nearly as I could
discover from the record plats the map was right. Now there is
always that possibility that some time through the years the
city has acquired some additional alley rights-of.-way.' I' don' t
know that. But if so , they would have had to have been recorded .
Mr. Ilouston: The only additional^right-of-ways that I recall
0 that: were obtained , and I wonder if you have a record of that, is
back of Park Street over there back of where Salvino lives. That
alley ,,as. . we got the rigt,t of way to continue that through. Do
you have the sewers in the alley there?
Air. Philpott : East of S.E. 2nd Avenue I have a sewer in the alley
• . north of S.E. 1st. Street. And that goes on eastward to pick un
the last block. That's the alley north of Ist street..
... -14-
Mr. Phi.l.pott: And I also have an alley south of Dania Beach
Boulevard.
Mr. Houston: I 'd lil: e to ask this . Because of the additional.
service run to the property line , in going into the alley wouldn't
• that: reduce the cost: some?
Mr. Phi.lpot:t: Oh yes.
Mr. Iloust:on: Now on this narti.cular alley between 6th and 7th, is
there , ' do' we have the right of way?
•
Mr. Phi.lpott: So far as I . know. iTre have a In foot alley wherever
possible.
Mr. Houston: If you would go doom the alley would you eliminate
this extra line?
•
Mr. Phil.pott: Yes , if they get: the right-of-way. If we can put
the sewer in the allay between 6th and 7t:h the additional. line
required would be about a thousand or so. But we still have that
one additional line wherever you have to go i.nt:o the street. .
• Mr. Houston: I don't ,follow you when you say a thousand against,
12 thousand.
ifr. Phi.lpott: A thousand against twelve hundred.
Mr. Houston: It costs 12 thousand dollars more to go through the
• allays .
Mr. Phi.l.pott: If. . .no wait. . .
Commissioner 7enobia: You are adding one more line that 's why Bob.
Nr. "hilnott: There is three l.i.nes instead of two.
lfr. Houston: You will eliminate one l.ine by going in the alley.
!` Mr. Philpott: No , because then it is 4 to 3 . If you go another
alley it: is 5 to 4 . And if you go still another one it is 6 to
Commissioner Zenobia: You see because next to the Cemetery .you
have an alley instead of half of a street .
Ifr. . Phil note: Eventually up here we will have to go in the streets
because there are no lines at all..
4.
Mr. Houston: Well let 's put it this coat'. The allev between nth
and 7th is what we are tal.l:ing about , right? You have a nort,i.on of
the alley already, that I know.
•_ Mr. Philpott: The same thing is true between 5th and 6 th as I
recall. The alley is open and paved . However, I don 't know that
you have the right-of-way on the west end of it. The record plats
1 don' t show and neither do the city mans. But we have ,got to have
the right-of-way whether it is paved or not. But that would be a
good possibility if it is already paved . what the width of it is
I don' t know. And whether the ri.ght-of-way exists I don't know.
But we can't build these things because of the width of the manhole
excavation in a 10 foot width. It is almost i.mnossi.ble, without
encroaching on nri.vate nronerty.
r Ci.t�, Manager Neff: Mr. Philpott bringing it back to a focus here
•.: a little bit-, I think that the Commission here has three alterna-
tives . They can either nut them in the streets , nut them in the
al.l.eys , or not put them at all. I think this is the thing that
-{ '- the Commission has to decide first. If they do that , thev el.i.mi-
* ; nate the other two problems and proceed from there.
SFr
r.
Y
S, � -7.5-
® Mr. nhi.lnott: That 's true, but I think that while you are de-
cidi.ng these things you ought to think about these neonle un
in here and whnt_they have been told about where to nut the
septic tanks. Because it, may be, that there is enough nromiscs
or requirements or, whatever you coast out- here as to them nro-
• perry owners that you would be obligated to get that r. ifrht-of:-
way and. out it in the alley. I don't know that.
Commissioner Zenobia: well. that 's what I was just going to say.
I think that we are obligated to the oeonl.e tobo have been t-010
to nut' 'them in the, alleys . And where possible , li4e, on 9t-h St. .
8th St . , and 71:h Si-reet we sl+ould go ahead and issue an order
to chanfre i.t to the al.l.eys. And i'f we can get- more rirht--of-wnv
in those other alleys let 's nut them in there nl.so, because *here
people were made to put their sentic tanks in the allevs . And I
think we are obl.i.gaterl to them.
Commissioner Young: Yes , I 'm not sure that was by ordinance. I
thins: i is was more public nolicy.
Commissioner Zcnobia: well I don't think it was by ordinance
either, but the thing is we told them, to do i.t. Once you have
told them to do it. . .
Commissioner Young: They still had to do it before they could
get: t"eir C. 0.
Commissioner Zenobia: . So we are obligated to them.
• Commissioner Young: That's very possible.
Commissioner Grammer: Well whether it is zoning or not, like
Mr. Houston said , the plans come in here and you got to get a
permit. If that septic tank was shown in the front and you had
an alley it was changed and put in the back. People were forced
• to do it whether it was ordinance or whatever.
Virgil Tarpley: It was done by zoning.
Commissioner Grammer: It wasn' t done by zoning, it was done by
the Building department if you want to get right down to what it
was done under.
Commissioner Zenobia: I 'd like to make a motion to snake a change
order to Mr. Philpott to put these sewer lines in the alleys on
1 9th St. , 8th St. , and 7th St. Because these people were promised
or told rather to put their septic tanks in the alleys and I think
we are obligated to it , and let 's go ahead and make a change order.
Commissioner Young: Carl., excuse me one second . I don't hel.ieve
this is a meeting. I think it is a conference.
Commissioner Zenobia: It was a called meeting.
Commissioner Grammer: It was a called meeting
t
City Clerk Mary Thornhill.: We called the roll..
Mr. Philpott: Could I make a suggestion? So ttlat there won't be
questions later about this . If we take the sewer out of Seventh
Street then the lots on the north side of Seventh Street will not
be served. And as I understand your motion, that is what you are
saying.
Commissioner Zenobia: Because you don't have an alley between 7th
and 6th right?
1-fr. Philpott: That's right.
1`r• •
-16-
0
® Commissioner Zenobia: Wel-1 lets put them in 8th and oth Streets
then in the alleys and . . .
Mr. Philpott: Could I suggest that you describe the alleys? As
the alley between 7th and Sth Street.
Commissioner Zenobia: The alley between 7th and fith Street.
Mr. ' hilpott: That' s southwest. The alley between Ath and 9th
Street.
Commissioner Zenobia: And the a1.1ey between Rth and oth Street ,
southwest . That would he bet:ween •2nd Avenue and /lth Avenue.
Mr. Philpott: Wall roughly, yes . And 1-he alley south of Oth St-,
Commissioner Zenobia: And the alley south of. Oth Street.
Mr. PhilpotL-: Now you have actually designated which ones you
are talking about, but I still can put: a sewer now undar that
motion on Seventh Street: to serve tLi.s strip of lots here. If
you don't decide to get the right-of-way here.
Commissioner Hill: noes this cover our problems that we have in
that: area?
Commissioner Zenobia: Well that's part of it anyway. Now we can
try to get the right-of-way in the other alleys and see what we
can do, if we get a second to the motion.
Commissioner Young: Mr. Salvino . You seem to be your own nar-
liamentarian today. I believe that should be in the form of a
resolution.
Commissioner Zenobia: No this is just a change order, will it
take a resolution?
Mr. Philpott: Well. you will have to approve the change order
after it is drawn.
Commissioner Zenobia: I don't think it would take a resolution
today, Ellis.
Mr. Philpott: All I need is to know that the Ci.t-v Cmmmission is
directing us to put those sewers in those alleys , without anv
question at all, and you have it on them.
City Clerk Mary Thornhill: You can have that the change order
to he approved by the commission.
Commissioner Young: Well as far as that is concerned, your moti.on
probably would be in order then.
Commissioner Zenobia: Just a motion is all that it would take for
a change order.
Commissioner Hill: I '11 ' second that .
Mayor Salvino: Any more questions?
Commissioner Grammer: Yes , I would like to have it clarified a
little bit more. That's from S.W. 4th Avenue to S.W. 2nd Avenue.
Commissioner Zenobia: Well that's what I said .
Mr. Philpott: Well after you get down towards the cemetery it's
not exactly right , but it is enough for me. I dust want to be
sure that we have action on this for the reason that there is
additional money involved.
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1 l
• Mayor Salvino: Any more discussion?
Bob Houston: Air. Philpott, how soon do you have to know about
this change?
• Mr. Phi.lpott: Before the contractor. . before we can permit the
contractor to go to work.
Bob Houston: I 'd like to call your attention to this alley that
you are talking about, . it is 7.0 feet.
Commissioner Zenobia: Which one is ghat Bob?
Bob Houston: You will have to check your man.
Commissioner Young: That's not"Third. Place i.s if Bob? :
Bob Houston: You have• got a complete 3.0 foot dedication. Now
• why couldn't, you go down there and see if you couldn't negotiate
for 2 feet or 5 feet on each side of that alley and get an alley.
Now these alleys are worth money to this. Lots not put sewer
lines down the street if there is a possibility of getting an
alley.
• Commissioner Zenobia: I 'm in agreement with you Bob, and I was
going to bring that up next because Luther is sitting in the
audience here. Part of my motion did state that any other alleys
that we could get right.-of-ways for.
• Bob Houston: You are going to have this guy running back and
forth working for the sewers now.
Commissioner Zenobia: Well a lot of this can he handled between
him and the City Manager once we get this started .
Bob Houston: Some of this I know is going to be expensive to get
• because you have buildings involved. I recall. one building on
this 1.0 foot. alley.
Commissioner Zenobia: Well. I13.1 make another motion on that ore
after we finish this one.
• Aiayor Salvino: Any more discussion? Clerk, call the roll..
The roll being called , the Commissioners voted as follows :
Grammer Yes
Hill Yes
• Young Yes
Zenobia Yes
Salvino Yes
Commissioner Zenobia: Now I would like to make another motion
that we try to get the rights-of-way to these other alleys in
question in t he Southwest section, and not to proceed in those
streets until we have a definite answer on. them. That would be
from S.W. 2nd Street to S.W. 7th Street. Second to Fourth Ave-
nues .
Commissioner Hill: I 'll second that .
Virgil Tarpley: Well. if they will be in alleys they will. have
to be in the alleys instead of. . .
Commissioner Zenobia: Well wherever there is an alley. Wherever
it is possible I mean. I just covered that whole section so there
i.s no argument about it.
Mayor Salvino: Clerk, call the roll.
0 The roll being called, the Commissioners voted as follows:
Grammer Yes
Hill. Yes
Young Yes
Zenobia Yes
0 Salvino Yes
Commissioner Zenobia : Alright , I would like to ask a cluestion
of Mr. Phil.pol:t now. Over on the Southeast section Mr. Phil.not-t,
between 1.41: 1 and 1.51-h Street, between S.E. Second Avenue. and the
0 Highway, there was a man came in the City Hell. the other d d ay an
he is getting a petition up to get r-he alley dorlicated . I want
to know if that is i.n your plans to get started right away,
Mr. Philpott: An alley between 1.4 and . . . .
Commissioner Zenobia: There isn't an al-lev now, but this man in
trying to get it dedicated. He is getting al.l the people to pe-
tition there.
Mr. Houston: Which streets was it?
• commissioner Zenobia: Between 14th and 15th and Second Avenue. .
Mr. Philpott: East Second Avenue? You have a building in there.
Commissioner Zenobia: West of Second Avenue. I think there i.s
a building in there, I don't know.
.0 Mr. Phi1•nott: Well we have the sewers in streets i.n there now.
There aren't any alleys now. There is a 5 foot easement or 2
foot easement.
Commissioner Zenobia: Well I think that he got the man that has
the building to sign it,
Commissioner Grammer: Yes but under your second motion we can
take care of that. If they come up with the rir.ht-of-way we will
change i.t.
Mr. Philpott: We will connect the change so long as you make it
before the sewers get started.
City Manager Neff: Supposing, Mr. Philpott. . is there a motion
on the floor?
Commissioner Zenobia:' No.
City Manager Neff: Supposing that during: the time of this sewer
project, which is 400 days , that someone comes in and wants. . .
they have a lot', a little plot of land, or acreage or something. .
and they wi.sh to dedicate an alley between two streets, which
they own all the property of, or the property owners agree, what
is constituted as far as changing our plans? One, if no action
has been clone as far as physical action, and two if physical
action has taken place?
Mr. Philpott: Well now, let me• put it this way. We are probably
going to aslc the contractor to start in the neighborhood of S.E.
2nd Avenue and go both ways on 2nd Avenue. The first t`ing he
is going to hit as he moves away from the pumping station site is
either an alley or a street. . Now if -tt,ere is an alley there and
you have a sewer plan in the alley he will build a main there
which will serve the connection to that alley. Tf there i,s no
alley there he wil.1. move down to the street and build a manhole
to serve the street. Now if after that is construced . . .well,t
�y;
•
now wait a minute. this is still not too trough. After that is
constructed if somebody wants to dedicate an alley and construct:
the sewer off in some direction that we don't even have, the con-
tractor couldn' t be forced but probably would he wil.li.ng to insert
a manhole at that alley and Second Avenue and construct that: sewer
• line under this contract. What you will have is you will have to
nay for an additional manhole, plus the cost: of that alloy.
Mr. Houston: Mr. rhi.l.nott, let me asl' you a question on that. '
You arc talking about east: of Serond Avenue.
• Commissioner Zenobia: No this i.s west: of Second Avenue.
Mr. Ilouston: Well you are talking Ibout .if they want to dedicate
an alley. Now that should become a cost upon the suhdi.vi.der there.
Why are we going in and nutting sewers lines on that nroner. ty there?
• Mr. Philpott: The question was ns!cnrl how are we goi.rg to do it.'
Mr. Houston: Well I would like to bring that un right now. We
have no obligation to go in that acreage and nut any sewage in.
That is taken care of , if I am not mistaken, on your subdivision
plots . If they want it on an assessment basis, why certainly.
•
Commissioner Zenobia: Yes but how do you do it if you put it in
on the assessment basis?
Pfr. Houston: You don't, not down there. The subdivider will. have
to put: it in the same as he does water. That. ain't under assessment..
•
Mayor Salvino: Mr. Philpott , with the changes being made would
that afroct the 400 day limit?
Mr. Philpott: Well it all depends on how far you go with the
change. At this stage I don't think that there would he any
• cause for an extention of time. If you limit it to rights-of-
way that are in hand . Now then, if you decide to move to those
three alleys north of Seventh Street and i.t takes 6 or 7, months
to get the right-of-way cleared up, and the contractor has long
gone up the street and away from there it might. That depends
on how far you go and how long it takes . I don't thin}: there
• would be any justification for an extention of time in so far as
what you are talking about: here. Except for one thing, we are.
up against the same thing on the water pliant. If the contractor
finds that .the 400 days is sufficient and he can get in and get
out there would be no question. But if the same situation de-
velops under this contract as we have had out here at the water
• nlant where it ran over 'so far an I know `r, or 28 or whatever
day you decide on, then he might ask for an ext:ention of time
because his oontract was extended by so many feet. But I don't
think he would ask for it unless he needed it, and I don't think
he is going to need it, assuming that he isn't delayed in some
other manner. Yes there would be some justification there, if ,
you are going to increase his contract, which you are going to do
to some extent, there would be a justification for i.t. But I don't
think that it would even be asked for, unless for some other
reason he got in trouble.
• City Manager Neff : Mr. Mayor, Commissioners , another thing I would
like to bring to your attention while you called this a regular
meeting and Mr. Sparkman is here, we discussed this at length Mr.
Wal.der., Mr. Sparkman, Mr. Broome and Mr. Farina, and myself , in
regards to securing of easements and right.-of-ways. Now it was
recommended by all present that Mr. Sparkman nroc eed as rani.dly
as possible to get these easements in the lift-pump station sites.
The instruments are being drawn up and should be in his hands, the
legal. i.nstruments should he in his hands today or tomorrow. Now
-20-.
•
the only thing that is holding Mr. Sparkman back is that he has
no ability to administer any funds . In other words he has no
funds set into a trust fund or anything like that that he could
actually negotiate a contract with someone. He called me this
morning. He has in his possession the right to go ahead with one
• of the lift-pumn station sites , but he needs money. It is recom-
mended , 'and I talked to Mr. Ehy at the bank, and that we. set up a
trust fund that could be administered Through the Dania Bank by
Mr. Sparkman as our right-of-way agent , to secure these. Because
if he can secure them on the spot then he is going to be at a much
better advantage to do business.
• Commissioner Young: Bill , wasn't that taken care of by resolution
a couple of weeks ago?
City Manager Neff: There was no. . . .
• Commissioner Young: He asked for a provision in the resolution .
that he be authorized and the Dania Bank be di.rected . . .
Commissioner Zenobia: I .thought it was that way Ellis.
Commissioner Young: Yes he was .- That's full. authority.
Luther Soar!.man: This- is a contract for the purchase of a l.if+-
pump site down on 4th Terrace. I have.. to get. wi.th these neonl.e
and I have to have 5350 before I can get started,
City Manager Neff: Excuse me Mr. Young, if this is in there I
• do not -remember any figure or any amount and this -4s what I thought
the commission should decide that they would set into this trust
fund the amount of. . .we decided in the group that was in the meet-.
ing it would be approximately �20,00n to. . .
Commissioner Young: 525.00' wasn't i.t? :Well, we 'l.l settle for
• half.
City Manager Neff: I would like this made a matter of record if ,
it isn' t already on it. '
Commissioner Zenobia: ' I made that motion for the resolution and
• I don't recall ever mentioning any prices or -anything like that,
so it is probably not in there.
City Manager Neff: We have to have authorization to set this fund
up with the bank taking it out of the sewer fund and nutting it
•, into a separate fund that he can negotiate through the bank so that
he can on the spot at least if nothing else close an option, because
his hands are tied . He can go down and talk to these people until
he is blue in the face but if he has nothing to negotiate with he
is lost. So he has to have something to negotiate with. So what-
ever you want to authorize him, the amount you want to set un 'is
entirely up to you. But he needs authority to proceed other than
his contract. Now he has a contract. . This I am aware of, but the
right to negotiate this money has not to my knowledge been Put in
the bank and given to him.
Commissioner Zenobia: Let me ask this question. .Presuming we out
• this 520,000 in the hank, does Mr. Sparkman have *he right to go '
and negotiate a deal. without our. . . .
City ]!anager Neff: You already gave him full authority as an
anent .
7+ .
-21.
a .
• Commissioner Zenohi.a: What I want- to knot•+ is can somnone . . .can he
go to someone and sny I will, gi.vc you tri, nn0 for this hundred feet-
of . . .'hundred square feet of land?
Commissioner Young: I ngni.n direst Your attention Sir, to the
resolution that. was sassed . You said that Rroome & Farina in. . .
• should agree with the nrice, Arel than after '-hot stinuInt-fon is
met: that he, would have ful.l. authority to go ahem anrt consummate
the, dual .
City Mannger Neff: Well , hut- I know he is actlrg as the agent
and he has as his assistants Proome R, Farina. And this is what
• you gave him. You gave him the right to negotiate. I 'm nretty
sure of that .
Luther Sparkman: Yes , toe have had several meetings on this. If
you want to go into condemnation you can go into condemnati.on..
Let me explain the condemnation nroceedi.ngs one more time nlense. .
•
Commissioner Young: I 'm well ncouninted with it.
Luther Snarl:man: You are wel.l. aequai.nted , in of-her words the
condemning body nays for everything on the other sine. The
attorney fees which i.s a minimum fee of you know what, nnnraisal.
• fee which i.s a minimum, and the court costs. You are ta!sing 'half
of a lot where you could .buy a full lot without any legal. oroce-
dare. In my opinion it is much easi.er. Pecause if thev can show
damage to the remainder you11or,e going to have to take, the other
si.de of it, and if I can negotiate for this site t' ey will without
any question give you one lot, we won't get you half of it because
• you don't want to and that is understood.
Commissioner Young: That subdivision is already platted?
Luther Sparkman: That 's right. They have part of a subdivi.si.on
and they have made a swap down there with the ldil.liam's estate
• cohere they have the 5 acres more or less blocked out. It's not
recorded in the plat book.
Commissioner Young: It isn't recorded then. It- isn't, according
to the plat book.
• Luther Sparkman: No.
Commissioner Zenobi.a: Well Luther has mentioned this to us once
before that we had to take the whole lot.
rommi.ssioner Young: I don't remember.
•
Commissioner 7,enobia: You might have been sick or something
because I remember Luther mentioning that to us once before.
You were there weren't you.?
Mayor Salvino: Luther we could get a clear deed on that?
•
Luther Sparkman: Ch yes.It 's in Philomena Sessa, she 's a free
dealer. She had herself declared a free dealer.
Nr. Houston: Luther what 's the cost of that lot?
0 Luther Sparkman: Thirty-five hundred.
Commissioner Young: It 's about 50 by. . .
Luther Sparkman: 50 by 1.01 .
• Commissioner Zenobia: Is that right across from Tommy's house?
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11•
® Luther Sparkman: It 's right across from Dr. Brammor's house.
You see there is an alley plarned down the middle of it . They
are going to skip parts of i.t and take certain nnrts of the 10*
and they it meets the boundary strip on the othor nart , , the
portion on the north of it.
• Commissioner Young: You say that is right anross from nr. nrammer?
Luther Sparkman: Yes.
Commissioner Young: I thought it was down on the corner. by May
Mulliken.
•
Commissioner Zenobia: May Mulliken lives on Sixth.
Commissioner Grammer: She lives on Fifth and Sixth.
• Commissioner Young: Yes , but she lives on .a. corner.
Commissioner Grammer: well wherever it is at it is where it was
called for on the plans .
Luther Sparkman: There's a survey on that.
• Commissioner Zenobia: Well. I just sent for it. . She will bring
it: up. I want to see what I dial say.
City Clerk, Mary Thornhill: Well if I understand the trust agree-
ment right that we have at the hank that money can only he disbursed
• when there is a requisition presented to the Dnnin Bank. Just
like Mr.: Philnott had to present us with a requisition. And they
have the approved form of requisition over. there.
Commissioner Young: Wall if; that 's true then I don't see nnv
necessity of transferring into a separate account,, i.f they are
• directed to pay out certain premium on presentation of a re-
quisition.
Commissioner Zenobia: Well the problem is probably Ellis, I 'm '
not sure but I think that what Luther means is that if he makes
a deal , like if he makes a deal with you and you say alright I
will sell it to you for 43,500 until he hands you a deposit you
could turn around when he comes back and say I changed my mind.
Luther Sparkman: I negotiated with these neonle for some time
and I am sure they are going:.to be. folks: of :their words: 'This
is Johnny Sessas here and I talked to him on several occasions.
He finally agreed on a price of $3,500.
City Manager Neff: But Mr. Sparkman, you have led us to believe
that this is not always the case. It is possible that you could
go back to somebody else and they could change their mind . Isn't
this correct? And that you feel that you have a better ability
` to negotiate if you. .
•
Luther Sparkman: I negotiated for property for. Florida Power C
Linht and had a carte blanche on the thing.
Ci.tT'7 Manager Neff: This is what I think you should have with
the Commission, a carte blanche to . go ahead.
Commissioner 7,,enobia: Here is one of the things I said in that
motion. That you would be the special right-of-way agent in
conjunction with the opinion with Broome & Pari.na Consultant
Engineers to have the right to negotiate and consummate.
Commissioner Young: That's exactly what I said .
4
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all
yYY.
City Manager Neff: Right, but he hasn't any money to consummate
with.
Commissioner 7enobia: lie hasn' t anything to negotiate with.
• City Manager Neff: lie'.s got: no money_ . lie's {rot no checking
account. Ile can't 'go down there and give them hi.s own check.
City Clerk Mary Thornhill : Well. now Mr. Wal.den had the form of
requisition that: the Dania Bnntc wanted and you would get them
from him and they would have to be 'approved by the City Commission
• and taken to the Dania Bank to Mr. Vroom. That was my understanding.
I might be wrong, but that's what Mr'. Vroom told me.
City Manager Neff: Well I don't care if you give him cash or not
as long as he has some negotiable instrument . Because if I were
selling property to the City and he came and asked for an option
• with me and we agreed to a price, until he had delivered to me
some honest and earnest money we would not have consummated the
deal. And if he didn't do that on the soot I have the right to
change my opinion as to the value of my land at a later date.
Commissioner Zenobia: Well actually al.l he would need would be. .
is deposit money, right?
City Manager Neff: Well anything that is negotiable. Even a
negotiable instrument. If he has got a purchase order or some-
thing that is negotiable. ' But if he has to come bark and wait
for a Commission meeting on which to authorize this this is
• going to, be a possible two-week delay. In other words , i-f he
negotiates today with these people and he has to wai.t to have
it approved, this is going to be two weeks from Monday, before
you can possibly approve it unl.ess you have a special. meeting.
I am only trying to expedite this thing. I don!t. . .whatever
Mr. Sparkman feels that he needs .
Luther Sparkman: Anything to make it easier. The easi.est way
is the easiest way. When I was working for Florida Power & Light
on their right-of-ways the only thing I would do is draw my trust
account chectc and they immediately had me another re-itiibursed
fund . But I don't think it is safe to do business that wnv, so
• I don't want to do that. Just so they have it so I can get some
money out of the bank to go to Sessa and get this purchase agree-
ment signed to take it to Mr. Walden to draw a deed and have Mrs.
Philomena Urbano Sessa sign it.
City Manager Neff: This is exactly what I want and whatever you
two can decide upon. . :I mean the Commission and Mr. Sparkman, it
w: is satisfactory to me, but I just think that you should take some
action to give him something negotiable regardless of .what i.t is.
t Commi-ssi.oner Zenobia: I would think the sum of C9,000 would be
}� enough in a trust account. He would be able to handl.e. the. . .
Luther Sparkman: If you run out out some more in.
City Manager Neff: Hell I would just re-imburse it , that' s al.l .
r,! 17hatever you want , but you have to give him sometting.
;• Commissioner Young: Well why would you need a trust account?
Commissioner 7.enobia: So he can give a deposit. Lice right now
he has deal. cooking' with Sessa.
Commissioner Young: Can't he take a requisition as a negotiable
instrument?
M}• -24-
• . x . •
• City linnager Noff: 140.1 this is a . . .
Commissioner Young: Ile would be quali.Piccl by the resolution and
contract.
Commissioner Grammer: Well he could do that . . ,
•
Commissioner Young: It does say and consummate.
Commissioner Grammer: Who does these requisitions have to come
from? .
• Commissioner Young: Requisitions ,could come from the City Attor-
ney.
Commissioner Grammer: well what if he has a deal and he goes to
the City Attorney's office and he is up there in court and he has
got to mess around all day and this man gets paid by the hour.
• Ile could save the city money, because if he has got to sit down
there in Clarke Waldens office for 6 hours while he is waitingg,
for him to come back that's tMon we would save.
City Clerk Mary Thorhhi.l.l: Mr, Grammer what I meant by Mr. Walden
having the requisition, he together with the Vice President of the
• Doni.a Sank, they have approved the form of requi.si.ti.on, and they
are drawn up i.n Mr. Walden's office. Now Mr. Walden can give
Luther the requisitions .
City City Manager Neff : Well. I think the only thing here is that when
you put this money into the fund originally you will issue a
• rcauisi.ti.on for the amount that you -put in li.ke C9,000 or 5ln,no0
or 20,000 whatever, you decide upon. You at that time put, it in
a fund for this contingency and then he can negotiate out of this
fund and shows back to this fund exactly what he has snent and
you replenish this as you need it, but again I feel and I think
Mr. Sparkman will agree and Mr. Walden agreed to this, that he
• needs something in hand when he is doing business with people so
that he can negotiate on the spot, because in this manner he is
going to save the city, it is -felt by him and by me and by Mr.
Walden, he is going to save the city money.
Luther Sparkman: Now working with Perkin, I 'll. go back to Florida
• Power & Light. Co, again, he carried himself around a Little booklet
whatever you want to call it, it was just like money. Ile was
authorized to sign it. He had this fund set up by Florida Power R
Light. But if. Mr. Walden is going to draw up these instruments
and we reach a figure, if he draws the instrument we should he
• able to do something theft.
Commissioner Lenobia: Yes , I think we should have a trust fund
for it. It would make it a heck of a lot easi.er.. And like Mr.
Grammer says , he is getting paid R10 an hour, so there is no
sense in havitig .hi.m run back and forth. We had enough trust in
the man to make him our right-of-way agent, so we should have
• enough trust 1=0 Let him handle a little moon., too.
City Clerk Mary Thornhill.: May I make a suggestion?
Commissioner 7,enobia: Yes ma 'am.
• Idr. Ilouston: Well what this really is is a right-of-way fund ,
is that correct? Well why should it be a trust fund'. if what it
is is a right-of-way fund?
r.i.ty Clerk Mary Thornhill: I`loll don't you think that Mr. ldalden
• could get with Mr. Vroom because they should be handling this ,:
and decide what they want to do in letting Luther have the money,
and then let the Commissioners know. If it has to be a resolution
or whatever it is.
-25-
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• •
® Mr. . Philnot:t: In order to get the money out of the hanl,. in
other than a trust account you have to ;*,o throutrh cer�nin
motions to get it out . And that means a requi.sit-ion that has
to be signed by us , by the Mayor, or whatever offi.cfal.s , then
it goes to the bant: and the bank issues a check on that fund ,
to whoever the payee i.s on the requisition. So every time you
pay the l0', you have got to make out: the requi.siti.on to get
this approval of the City, Commis^i.on or whoever, we have to
sign it then it goes to the bank. In other words ,you have 1-hat
every time you pay out anything out: of that trust fund. Now if
you rake a stated amount of money out of the trust fund in the
first place and put it into a separate account, I don' t care
what you call. it, then you could draw on it by check. If I was
selling a piece of right-of-way to Mr. Sparkman and he offered
me a requisition, t;,,is might be payable some. time in the future,
if everybody signs it, I don' t think I would do business with
14m. I would want the money in my hard.
Commissioner Zenobia: I agree with you.
City Clerk Mary Thornhill: But there still has to be something
wort-ed out at the hank.
Luther Snarkman: Well it doesn't make any difference, ,just so
I can get- a check if I want it . You can have the clerk sign it-,
it doesn't make any difference to me. If I can take t350. 00 and
go down to Sessa's and get this thing signed tonight I can come
back tomorrow and you can get the papers drawn up and you have
a pumping site down there within a weeks time.
Commissi.bner Zenobia: Ile is the right-of-way agent . I would
think it would just he. . .
Luther Snarkman: I am right-of-way Agent, in other words, you
notice on this contract it says the City of Dania appoints Luther
Sparkman right-of-way agent, and of course this Phi.lomena Sessn
TJrbana, '.frde dealer,'; is' the seller. Actually that's as far as I
go on the purchase agreement. Then when the deed is mane out it
is made out to the City of Dania. The corporation is signed by
whoever the freeholder is. Now on your easements, of course we
will get to that later on, you only have three actual sites that
A you are buying on fee-simple deeds .
Commissioner Zenobia: Did you start a motion Ellis?
Mayor Salvi.nb: No , he didn't make a motion.
A Commissioner Zenobia: He was starting one and I int,errunted him.
Commissioner Hill: Did you start a motion?
Commissioner Young: Mr. Neff , doesn't- that say that. . .
AR City Manager Neff: Ir. doesn't say that in essence, Mr. Young, it
just says that he will work in conjunction with Broome & Farina. '
And I think that I would have to agree with Mr. Snarkman, and they
were to do more or less his technical work as far as giving_ him
the descriptions and so forth, whereas actually in negotiations
it is entirely upon his shoulders. As Mr. Sparkman says, I don't
think that Broome R Farina has. . .
Luther Sparkman:I 'm r.eal.ly not qualified to go out there and run
a survey. I'm not a surveyor.
City Manager Neff: Do you feel that Broome & Farina are qualified
in the field of appraisal? I 'm putting you on a spot , I don't . .
mean to.
-
Commissioner Young: That's a loaded question.
t
-26-
® City Manager Neff : But the Commission. . . I don't think the Com-
mission hired Broome & Farina to he appraisers , did you?
City Commission: No.
City Manager Neff: So I think that he has the right to appraise
and they .have the right to. . .
Commissioner Young: And the i.ntent on that resolution Mr. Neff
was so that the two of them would agree on basically the sums of
money to ,be paid for easements, rights-of-ways and other reGui-
sitions.
Commissioner Zenobia: I don't think that was the intent of the
resolution. I made the motion for that and that wasn't my intent.
Because we made two separate contracts. One for Broome & Farina
as the surveyors and one for Luther as the right-of-way agent.
• And the only reason that we nut that one line in there that they
work in conjunction with one another is that we get the .right
piece of property. He might go out there and make a deal. if he
hasn't got the survey on the wrong piece of nronarty.
Commissioner Young: Is he bonded?
City Manager Neff: That's another question.
Mr. Houston: Well let's nut it this way boys at 1s1.0 an hour
you don't need to pay anv hourly wages or sign a check or any-
thing like that if Broome & Farina are not appraisers. And they
know nothing about it.
Commissioner Zenobia: I know they are not appraisers . Well. we
can stay here . all day—I 'll make a motion ,to instruct the City
Attorney to draw up a resolution to set up a trust fund, trust
account , for Luther Sparkman right-of-way agent in the sum of
510,000 to negotiate getting the parcels of land needed for the
right-of-ways for the sewers.
Commissioner Young: That 's a trust account?
Commissioner Zenobia: Trust Account. It would have to be a
trust account.
Luther Sparkman: A right-of-way account, a trust account. . . .
Commissioner 7enobia: If you make it a trust account if anything;
goes wrong with . it they lose their license. That's why I am making_
it a trust account:
Mayor Salvino: Is there a second?
Commissioner Grammer: • Yes' I 'll second it.
Mayor Salvino: Any discussion?
City Manager Neff: I think to clarify this now that you have a
second on this motion, I think that the thing to do would be to
possibly instruct the City Attorney to draw up i.n the hest nego-
tiable manner, whether i.t is a trust account or whatever the hank
-� feels is necessarv.
Commissioner Zenobia: I 'll add that to my motion then that the
d City Attorney would draw it up in the best manner whichever is
satisfactory with the bank.
Commissioner Young: You might have them reply by endorsement
and have carbon copies .
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t:
Mayor Salvino: Any more discussion? Clerk, call the roll .
The roll being called , the Commissioners voted as follows:
Grammer Yes.
Hill Yes '
Young Yes
Zenobia Yes
Salvino Yes
Commissioner Zenobia: One thing. . .Mr. Philnott dial you know
that all change orders are going to have to be approved by the
City Commission from now on.
Mr. Philnott: They always have been.
Commissioner Zenobia : I know there was a motion made at the
last meeting we had that's why I wanted to know.
Mr. Phi.lpott: Well I don't accept 'change orders without approval.
on anything.
Mayor Salvino: Anybody in the audience have anything to ,say?
Do I hear a motion?
Commissioner Grammer: So moved.
s
There being no further business on the agenda, the meeting adjourned .
a y Viornhill
City Clerk-Auditor
3
c .
n,
Frank Salvi.no
}.`•,c:; Mayor-Commissioner
r'.
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